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  1. #136
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Taking willing kids and putting them in costume to fight crime and risk their lives is a genre trope. It doesn't "count" for many of us in the same way that friends and family not recognizing someone with a mask (or without glasses) doesn't make them a blind idiot.

    The interpersonal relations do count because they are not a genre trope. For me, definitely some of it shows up for Bruce in the early post-crisis era with the change in how Dick became Nightwing and how Jason became Robin (and how poorly Batman treated some other heroes) making Batman a less-good person and less-good parent. Yeah, he made some mistakes with Dick before (unsure about Jason), but it so wasn't one-sided. It seems to settle down a bit in the early to middish 1990s, but roars back in the late '90s where, to me, it simply outstrips the good parenting (or good friending) to such a degree I don't like the character anymore. Sometimes it gets a bit better, but it never seems to stay that way anymore. For a less-long-lived fandom (a tv show being a prime example), it's be past the point where I simply don't care anymore - so much bad has been done I no longer feel the good sincere. But it's not, and more changes in direction are done in comics, so I can hold out more hope though.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 07-29-2019 at 04:08 AM.

  2. #137
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Taking willing kids and putting them in costume to fight crime and risk their lives is a genre trope. It doesn't "count" for many of us in the same way that friends and family not recognizing someone with a mask (or without glasses) doesn't make them a blind idiot.

    The interpersonal relations do count because they are not a genre trope. For me, definitely some of it shows up for Bruce in the early post-crisis era with the change in how Dick became Nightwing and how Jason became Robin (and how poorly Batman treated some other heroes) making Batman a less-good person and less-good parent. Yeah, he made some mistakes with Dick before (unsure about Jason), but it so wasn't one-sided. It seems to settle down a bit in the early to middish 1990s, but roars back in the late '90s where, to me, it simply outstrips the good parenting (or good friending) to such a degree I don't like the character anymore. Sometimes it gets a bit better, but it never seems to stay that way anymore. For a less-long-lived fandom (a tv show being a prime example), it's be past the point where I simply don't care anymore - so much bad has been done I no longer feel the good sincere. But it's not, and more changes in direction are done in comics, so I can hold out more hope though.
    Taking willing kids and getting them to sneak out of their warm beds at night to endanger them has never been a genre trope. There is no way that can be justified. there is a reason that kid sidekick trope is normally done with orphans. So writers don't have to walk that unethical and immoral line.

    Anyway my point is that Bruce/Batman has been a bad parent long before the 2000's [on and off depending on the writer but a bad parent nonetheless]

    I just think fans who were acting shocked when he punched Tim or some of his recent bad/abusive parenting are conveniently forgetting that he's been an abusive parent/ friend for a very long time. It pretty much the norm.

  3. #138
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikelmcknight72 View Post
    A retcon of a retcon is still a retcon. Claiming otherwise is hair splitting, and hair splittung isn't exactly constructive.
    Fair enough.

    As for my list, I would rank the retcon of keeping Pa Kent alive as pretty egregious as it robbed Clark of his "Uncle Ben" (even though it predated Lee & Ditko's story by a few decades), as well as the retcon that Wonder Woman never founded the JLA or that Batman was an "urban legend" despite saving Gotham from giant publicly seen disasters for more than a decade and having multiple sidekicks leading several generations of teen heroes.

    Had these retcons led to better stories, I wouldn't have minded, but all three simply muddied the water or outright sabotaged large parts of the DCU.

  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Fair enough.

    As for my list, I would rank the retcon of keeping Pa Kent alive as pretty egregious as it robbed Clark of his "Uncle Ben" (even though it predated Lee & Ditko's story by a few decades), as well as the retcon that Wonder Woman never founded the JLA or that Batman was an "urban legend" despite saving Gotham from giant publicly seen disasters for more than a decade and having multiple sidekicks leading several generations of teen heroes.

    Had these retcons led to better stories, I wouldn't have minded, but all three simply muddied the water or outright sabotaged large parts of the DCU.
    Diana not being a founder wasn't an issue and Black Canary serving as one in her place worked just fine. Besides, it isn't like Diana has been served so well on the League most of the time.

  5. #140
    Fantastic Member mikelmcknight72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Fair enough.

    As for my list, I would rank the retcon of keeping Pa Kent alive as pretty egregious as it robbed Clark of his "Uncle Ben" (even though it predated Lee & Ditko's story by a few decades), as well as the retcon that Wonder Woman never founded the JLA or that Batman was an "urban legend" despite saving Gotham from giant publicly seen disasters for more than a decade and having multiple sidekicks leading several generations of teen heroes.

    Had these retcons led to better stories, I wouldn't have minded, but all three simply muddied the water or outright sabotaged large parts of the DCU.
    Well, to each their own. Personally, Krypton and his birth parents are enough of an "Uncle Ben" to satisfy me.

    I'm tempted to start a thread on ill conceived story elements that are unworkable over the long haul. If I did, the first three items would be:

    1. Batman is believed to be an urban legend. Therefore, Batman and Robin cannot be seen by the press or the general public.
    2. The emotional spectrum draws from a finite, non-replenishing pool and its use by the various lanterns will lead to catastrophe.
    3. Warp drive damages subspace, so warp speed limits have to be enacted. (Star Trek TNG).

    My ideal for the JLA founders would be to increase it by three members so you could have Wonder Woman and Black Canary, Cyborg and Martian Manhunter, and then add in Vixen. I know more than 7 members seems to be a challenge, but I'd rather expand by no more than 3 than start playing music chairs. Besides, the satellite era proved that a larger JLA cast is workable.

  6. #141
    Empty is thy hand!
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    What Convergence did with Crisis on Infinite Earths is appalling.

  7. #142
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Diana not being a founder wasn't an issue and Black Canary serving as one in her place worked just fine. Besides, it isn't like Diana has been served so well on the League most of the time.
    I think it's important that the original Justice League be the big guns. The Trinity don't have to be major players in those early adventures, but they damn well better have been there from the beginning, otherwise it just doesn't feel like the Justice League to me.

  8. #143
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikelmcknight72 View Post
    My ideal for the JLA founders would be to increase it by three members so you could have Wonder Woman and Black Canary, Cyborg and Martian Manhunter, and then add in Vixen. I know more than 7 members seems to be a challenge, but I'd rather expand by no more than 3 than start playing music chairs. Besides, the satellite era proved that a larger JLA cast is workable.
    I think what they did post-Infinite Crisis was the best solution. They restored Wonder Woman's status as a founder of the JLA, along with Superman & Batman, but they also added in Black Canary from the get-go. Additive retcons work really well for me. It's the ones that retcon vast swaths of existing stories and attempt to say "Nope, that didn't happen at all, this did instead" that I think cause problems.

    Adding in Vixen from the start is an interesting idea. Given how unremarkable her early Bronze Age stuff was, retconning her into a Silver Ager would be a nice way of expanding her history and adding new wrinkles to her character.

  9. #144
    Boisterously Confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Diana not being a founder wasn't an issue and Black Canary serving as one in her place worked just fine. Besides, it isn't like Diana has been served so well on the League most of the time.
    Dude! Speak for yourself.

    Removing Wonder Woman from DC's history (IMO) was the single dumbest thing DC did post-crisis. She could have been their continuity piece. Instead, they ripped a hole in the Justice Society, and turned their history from something organic into something artificial.

    Superman's history was important. Batman's would have been nice. Wonder Woman's was imperative.

  10. #145
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Speaking of CoIE

    Turning the heroes of Crisis of Infinite Earths into the villains of Infinite Crisis is such a bad idea I already hate the concept even though I haven't read both.

    Dr. Manhattan turned out to be the villain who created New 52 is another one in a similar vein. Again, haven't read Doomsday Clock, it's more about the principle of... maybe don't blame somebody else's work for your own fault... or for other writer's fault for taking inspiration from that work and then creating the Dark Age where things are skeptical and violent?

  11. #146
    Fantastic Member geomon's Avatar
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    New 52 Tim Drake. He still hasn't recovered.

  12. #147
    Spectacular Member Fromper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Speaking of CoIE

    Turning the heroes of Crisis of Infinite Earths into the villains of Infinite Crisis is such a bad idea I already hate the concept even though I haven't read both.

    Dr. Manhattan turned out to be the villain who created New 52 is another one in a similar vein. Again, haven't read Doomsday Clock, it's more about the principle of... maybe don't blame somebody else's work for your own fault... or for other writer's fault for taking inspiration from that work and then creating the Dark Age where things are skeptical and violent?
    Just two of many reasons why I refuse to even check out DC's modern work. As I've said elsewhere, I'm reading my old collection, filling in gaps in my back issues, and pretending that DC went out of business 15 years ago.

    Honestly, the idea of ANY Watchmen character appearing ANYWHERE other than the movie adaption since the end of the original Watchmen series is unthinkable to me. Literally. I refuse to think about it. And I certainly refuse to read any comic based on it.

  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    Dude! Speak for yourself.

    Removing Wonder Woman from DC's history (IMO) was the single dumbest thing DC did post-crisis. She could have been their continuity piece. Instead, they ripped a hole in the Justice Society, and turned their history from something organic into something artificial.

    Superman's history was important. Batman's would have been nice. Wonder Woman's was imperative.
    Speak for yourself.


    Between the mod era, the outdatedness of Marston's stories, Diana being the JSA's [I]secretary[\I] and a whole list of embarrassing things that any fan would want to forget about, removing Diana's utterly toxic pre crisis history was doing her a favor.

    I'll take Diana being a well written allegedly unimportant nobody over her being in the JL or JSA as nothing more than a token to make those teams look more progressive than they really are.

  14. #149
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Speak for yourself.


    Between the mod era, the outdatedness of Marston's stories, Diana being the JSA's [I]secretary[\I] and a whole list of embarrassing things that any fan would want to forget about, removing Diana's utterly toxic pre crisis history was doing her a favor.

    I'll take Diana being a well written allegedly unimportant nobody over her being in the JL or JSA as nothing more than a token to make those teams look more progressive than they really are.
    I don't think it's an either/or situation. They could have retained Diana's status as one of the founders of the modern age of superheroes (and her membership within the JSA), but ditched the more problematic aspects of her publishing history in the same way that the continuity revamps of Superman & Batman dumped the goofier parts of their continuity without losing their seniority.

    There was little about Perez's reboot that necessitated it being set in the present. Byrne took the same scorched earth approach to Superman's prior history, but he remained the impetus for the return of costumed superheroes. Why not do the same for Wonder Woman?

  15. #150
    Spectacular Member Man_of_Tomorrow's Avatar
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    1.Most of Byrne's run on Superman is full of retcons that damaged the character in the long term.
    2. Barry is the source of the Speed Force.

    Those are the first that come to mind, that truly bug me and I can't ignore.

    But really I could make a list just with Geoff John's, Scott Snyder's and John Byrne's retcons, that I really don't like.

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