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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    Batwoman is Batman's cousin. Also the colony.

    Krypton didn't explode of natural causes.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  2. #17
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Most all of Superman's changes in the Byrne reboot.
    Superman as a father/Jon Kent's existence
    Barry's mother dead.
    Selina as a former prostitute.
    post-Crisis Wonder Woman not a JL founder.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  3. #18
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Barry's mother dead.
    Agreed.

    Selina as a former prostitute.
    I don't like, but don't loathe it. I dislike the attitude that prostitutes or former prostitutes are more immoral/unforgivable than thieves or former thieves (just look at the number of admirable, lovable leading lady former thieves who get happily ever after v. former prostitutes). But the execution was ghastly. And the dominatrix aspect worse. Plus, I can't see Selina staying with such a gig very long. She's a character that should have too much ambition/skill for it. Lot more money in the big thievery jobs she plays off. I'm actually more upset by having Bruce rescue her as their first interaction. She, on the whole, should not need to be rescued by him. I have lots of issues with Year One.

    post-Crisis Wonder Woman not a JL founder.
    I dislike that one a lot, too. It made her junior Batman and Superman, etc. when I think she needs to be on equal footing with them.

  4. #19
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    Making Dick Grayson’s Robin uniform look more like Tim Drake’s. While I’m at it, “updating” all the original Teen Titans’ uniforms.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    Batwoman is Batman's cousin. Also the colony.
    This. This. This.

  6. #21
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    The New 52 retcon that Guy Gardner was a cop from a cop family. I greatly prefer his old background of a teacher or social worker.

  7. #22
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Every single change to Superman in the Byrne reboot.

    To a lesser extent, a lot of the post-Crisis changes to Wonder Woman, especially her debuting several years after her peers and the toxic impact this had on Donna Troy, along with the changes to Steve and Etta. Overall her mythos has more positives than the changes made to Superman though, they just don't all come together well.

    Barry's mom being murdered.

    The angst-ridden rift between Bruce and Dick compared to the more balanced pre-Crisis rift that ended in a mature way. Dick actually wasn't blameless in the older comics.

    Barbara being Gordon's niece. A totally needless change/complication. What story purpose does it serve? Is it because Miller forgot about her in Year One? Were the editors asleep?

    Zeus as Diana's daddy, at least the execution of it. The movie did it better because it's barely a thing, but 3+ years of the comics devoted to it is too much. If they HAD to give her a father, use Hercules or even obscure ass Prince Theno.

    COIE in general smooshing all the incompatible Earths together and making a lot of old stories, and even whole characters, obsolete.

  8. #23
    Fantastic Member mikelmcknight72's Avatar
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    - Undoing Raven being free of Trigon
    - Identity Crisis should have been told without the rape retcon, and murder, of Sue Dibney.
    - Hawkworld being set in the present instead of the past really screwed up the Hawks.
    - WW arriving in the present instead of the past, not being active in the Golden Age.
    - Restoring Superman as the first hero at the expense of so much else.
    - Jericho's instability/heel turn
    - Jericho being gay, especially combined with the instability/heel turn - A straight, heroic male character who wasn't a macho, macho man? Undermine two stereotypes at once? I appreciated the character so much for that. I have to qualify why so folks don't jump to the wrong conclusion. I could relate to him because I'm a straight male who fits the gay stereotype far better than the straight, macho stereotype. I've been mistaken for gay, abused physically/emotionally/verbally for it. Tried to pretend I was macho for a while to avoid it. Finally, I said to hell with it. At least I still have Nightcrawler as a fairly relatable character.

  9. #24
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    To a lesser extent, a lot of the post-Crisis changes to Wonder Woman, especially her debuting several years after her peers and the toxic impact this had on Donna Troy, along with the changes to Steve and Etta. Overall her mythos has more positives than the changes made to Superman though, they just don't all come together well.
    I agree, but was never that happy even with Donna's original origin (well, original after she became Donna and not younger Diana) told in Teen Titans #22 didn't really time out well enough to make me happy. Wonder Woman didn't premiere until after Robin, so not long enough ago for Donna to be that young. Donna's had a lot of origins, and in truth, none of them work for me. If Diana had been working longer, this would, but I like her premiering at roughly the same time as Batman and Superman, and Robin no more than 3 years later, if possible. I really like him only 1 year after Batman, but I couldn't use that in my personal timeline/headcanon because I needed Batman (and Ollie) already working when Arrowette's mom tried heroing.

    Still like Diana premiering earlier, though.

    Identity Crisis should have been told without the rape retcon, and murder, of Sue Dibney.
    I'd rather it wasn't told. I don't like all the memory-tinkering: erasing Selina's turning hero, etc. that came out of it.

    Jericho's instability/heel turn
    So much agree. I liked him. His first downfall and death was horrible enough, and then they did it all over again.

    Jericho being gay,
    I didn't even know that had been done. Makes no sense at all, given what we read of him in old days. And can I had making Connor straight? I mean, was ever explicitly declared gay? I certainly thought he was gay in the issues I read with him when Ollie was newly alive again. But then I quit reading because asshole!Ollie was coming back. Only heard about this stuff with Connor much later.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 06-20-2019 at 05:10 PM.

  10. #25
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Superman not having powers from day one post-Crisis: This is a stupid complaint, I know, but call it a carry over from the Donner movies. The scene of him lifting the truck over his head as a toddler is a defining moment for me.

    Killing Barry's mother: Not every hero has to have a "tragic" origin. Sometimes they can just get powers and choose to do good with them.

    Clark joining the football team: I'm glad this got retconned because it really is cheating. There's no two ways about it.

    Getting rid of Batman: Year One as his official origin: I get why they did this. It hasn't aged well in a lot of ways. But it's still a great story and I'd hate to see it removed.

    Power Girl post-Crisis: Much as I like her, it's obvious they didn't know what to do with her. Her post-Crisis origin just seemed banged out at the last minute as an excuse to keep her around. They just spent a decade sticking her on various teams because they didn't know what else to do with her.
    Now listen to me, Clark! This great strength of yours--you've got to hide it from people or they'll be scared of you!

  11. #26
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Black Canary is Black Canary's daughter. And half Ollie's age. Ooh, I hated this one with a fiery passion. I really did enjoy her storyline about her widowhood and dealing with that loss in the bronze age. And I liked bronze age Ollie and Dinah (except for one writer, mostly). They already made it kinda icky with the age gap and him crushing on her mom (IIRC), and then it just went down the tubes as (IMO), Ollie's character was ruined.
    FWIW, Ollie was only in his late twenties during the Bronze Age.
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  12. #27
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    FWIW, Ollie was only in his late twenties during the Bronze Age.
    Not so much the Bronze age that's the problem, though it still erases the widow-hood story, which I liked (with Larry really being a good man and really being dead). And yes "half his age" may be an exaggeration (can't recall exact ages post-crisis), but it still annoyed me. What specific issue retconned her to daughter, anyway? I know I've seen it, but don't remember.

    Also, I could toss in Selina-is-23-and-Dick-is-21-and-Bruce-is-31. Except it didn't really last, since they reinstated some history. Bruce and Selina need to be peers to me. Maybe four years difference (either way), max. This, for me, is I like the GA setup where they met around the time Dick became Robin, and Dick became Robin no more than thee years after Bruce became Batman (I prefer one year, because of real-world timing) and Bruce became Batman at 25 (15 years after his parents died when he was 10). And I'd prefer Selina being at least 24 (definitely at least 22) when she meets him so she can't be in anyway qualified as a kid (though that's using more modern perceptions of early 20s, I admit). Of course, I have also considered the age was lie in the first place. But I guess we don't really have an idea on her original age? But definitely not a peer of Dick's.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 06-20-2019 at 05:42 PM.

  13. #28
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Not so much the Bronze age that's the problem, though it still erases the widow-hood story, which I liked (with Larry really being a good man and really being dead). And yes "half his age" may be an exaggeration (can't recall exact ages post-crisis), but it still annoyed me. What specific issue retconned her to daughter, anyway? I know I've seen it, but don't remember.
    Oh, the retcon was the worst pre-COIE that I can think of. Of course, having Dinah look twenty-something in the first place when she was middle-aged was kind of stupid, too.
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  14. #29
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Dinah look twenty-something in the first place when she was middle-aged was kind of stupid, too.
    Yeah, but that applies to several members of the of the Justice Society at that time. I also don't remember when Ollie's age was established, how old he was supposed to be when he got custody of Roy, etc. And the soft reboot of him 1969 really didn't help, since his past and present selves weren't as connected as they could have been.

  15. #30
    Fantastic Member mikelmcknight72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    Killing Barry's mother: Not every hero has to have a "tragic" origin. Sometimes they can just get powers and choose to do good with them.

    Clark joining the football team: I'm glad this got retconned because it really is cheating. There's no two ways about it.

    Getting rid of Batman: Year One as his official origin: I get why they did this. It hasn't aged well in a lot of ways. But it's still a great story and I'd hate to see it removed.

    Power Girl post-Crisis: Much as I like her, it's obvious they didn't know what to do with her. Her post-Crisis origin just seemed banged out at the last minute as an excuse to keep her around. They just spent a decade sticking her on various teams because they didn't know what else to do with her.
    I agree about Barry. It seem less about adding tragedy as motivation and more about paying a price for coming out of comic book limbo. Murdered mom enough tragedy? No. Falsely convict and imprison father for it enough? No, we need more. Let's see...eventually find out the cop who raises him in their place was having an affair with Barry's mom? OK. That'll do...for now. It's like the death by chocolate of comic book origins. Sheer overkill.

    Clark & football? Depending on how strong his abilities were at the time, it could be horrible or ok. If he just seemed like the fastest but not yet in a super way, OK. If they knew he was well beyond merely gifted? Not OK.

    Year One: I still love it. The Selina-as-a-hooker part is unpleasant, but the motivation it gives her is better than bored socialite or the like.

    Power Girl? They should have sent her into Ragnarok-Limbo with the JSA instead of the unfortunate multiple choice origins. The best thing in years was putting her original origin back in place where it belonged.

    I didn't much care for wiping Helena Wayne out of continuity, or getting rid of the multiverse either. Probably not really retcons, but still. Never liked it, and I bought Crisis when it was brand spanking new as a lad. Sat in the car reading the death of Kara while my mom was getting groceries. There may have been tears.
    Last edited by mikelmcknight72; 06-20-2019 at 06:38 PM. Reason: Fix typo (copy changed to cop)

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