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  1. #61
    Incredible Member joebleau's Avatar
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    Han Solo didnt shot first :P

  2. #62
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    John Byrne's Superman retcon and everything it touched (Supergirl, LOSH, etc.).

    Making Steve Trevor and Etta Candy old during Perez's run.

    The elimination of the Diana Prince secret id from WW.

    A giant yellow space cockroach being responsible for Hal Jordan's turn.

    "Everything" being in continuity in Batman's history according to Morrison.
    Last edited by phonogram12; 06-22-2019 at 12:37 PM.
    His current approval rating is 34%, meaning 34% of Americans are still morons.

  3. #63
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    The elimination of the Diana Prince secret id from WW.
    Thought I was the only one that liked her having a secret identity. I mean, it's not oh-my-god important to me, but I like the idea. Mind you, I also like the idea of Wally West's identity being secret. I just prefer the vast majority of my heroes have secret identities, I guess.

  4. #64
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Diana Prince is something I could take or leave. I think it could have worked better with Diana just discarding it and revealing her double life instead of retconning out though.

  5. #65
    Boisterously Confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    The elimination of the Diana Prince secret id from WW.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Thought I was the only one that liked her having a secret identity. I mean, it's not oh-my-god important to me, but I like the idea. Mind you, I also like the idea of Wally West's identity being secret. I just prefer the vast majority of my heroes have secret identities, I guess.
    I love the idea of Strange Visitors From Another World wanting to live as we do so they'll better understand us.

  6. #66
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    In 1968, Diana Prince and Wonder Woman were revealed as one and the same person. But this wasn't something that took the world by storm. It wasn't like Ralph Dibny forsaking the mask and declaring he's the Elongated Man (I never liked it when later stories had him wear a mask, when there was no need for one).

    They never showed the public reaction to the reveal of Diana Prince. Maybe because no one knew who she was beforehand. So now they find out that Wonder Woman is Diana Prince, but she has no powers and she dresses and acts just like a regular person, with no pretensions. It makes more sense for a hero to have an actual name like Diana Prince or Jack Knight or Ralph Dibny. It's silly to go around calling yourself Wonder Woman or Superman or Batman.

    I think Diana Prince should have just been her official name--and Wonder Woman is the sobriquet that the newspapers give her. It was always goofy in the CBS seasons of THE NEW ADVENTURES OF WONDER WOMAN, when Diana Prince was now an agent working for the Inter-Agency Defense Command--there was no reason to live a double life.

  7. #67
    Fantastic Member mikelmcknight72's Avatar
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    Phonogram,

    I agree with parts of you on Byrne, though I think some of the worst parts were imposed by editorial. He did an awful lot of good stuff during that era too. I enjoyed his run!

    Yes, Steve and Etta being old while Diana is just showing up was not my preference.

    WW no longer being Diana Prince isn't intrinisic to her character the way Clark, Bruce, Barry, etc. are for the others, but I do think it has value. We don't need a constant presence. Just make her cover be working for WW. The cover could be personal assistant/major domo/personal rep for WW. She wouldn't have to maintain a second residence, show up for a day job, or anything like that. It'd afford her a way to escape the pressure of being WW 24/7. She could go out as a regular person to dinner, a movie, grocery shopping, clothes shopping, etc, without having to worry about press or the like. I can see a case for and against having her be depowered as Diana Prince, but I'm not invested in either.

    I do dislike the lack of an Amazonian in the JSA during WWII. I'd like to see Diana's first trip to man's world be WWII with full JSA membership. But then, I don't see having Clark be the first hero as terribly important. That's like adding a third layer of frosting to a cake. Letting that go gains a great deal for other characters, and it really does Superman's character no harm. And there's always an out. Let's say that Dr. Fate made the world forget the Golden Age heroes when the JSA retired instead of unmasking for the HUAC. Diana went back to Paradise Island, so the world thinks her recent debut was the first time. She and the Amazons know better. The alternative to Diana in the JSA is for her mother to do it. I'd prefer she do it not as WW. Her garb at the time could have been inspiration for the WW outfit, but wasn't identical. The stories they did kind of like that with Hippolyta(sp?) as WW were a good way to accomplish it, and her interactions with the JSA and romance with Wildcat were enjoyable.

  8. #68
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Just make her cover be working for WW. The cover could be personal assistant/major domo/personal rep for WW. She wouldn't have to maintain a second residence, show up for a day job, or anything like that. It'd afford her a way to escape the pressure of being WW 24/7.
    I don't quite like that method because it's too easy to tip off people, IMO. Like how whenever anyone wanted to talk to Flash, they'd go talk to his good buddy Barry. Or go to see Billy Batson when they needed to see Captain Marvel. Always thought that was too close to revealing identities. I have considered the notion of Diana Prince as a "paper identity" though. Just a false name to rent an apartment under, have her bills delivered to, etc. while all the people she was close to knew it was just a cover ID. No substance or depth, and just a way to keep a bit of private life from general public. Definitely would not depower as Diana Prince, though.

    Though I'm not opposed to a more in-depth life as Diana, either.

    Letting that go gains a great deal for other characters, and it really does Superman's character no harm.
    While I like Superman being first hero, I think my concern in what you're suggesting is much more in terms of Steve and him being there for her first leaving of the island, and there at the beginning of the story. He's the character that theoretically gets harmed the most.

    But I'm also a fan of not having the JSA on the same earth (at least at the same time) as the JLA, because, as someone else said, they can't be the premiere hero team if the Justice League exists.

  9. #69
    Fantastic Member mikelmcknight72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I don't quite like that method because it's too easy to tip off people, IMO. Like how whenever anyone wanted to talk to Flash, they'd go talk to his good buddy Barry. Or go to see Billy Batson when they needed to see Captain Marvel. Always thought that was too close to revealing identities. I have considered the notion of Diana Prince as a "paper identity" though. Just a false name to rent an apartment under, have her bills delivered to, etc. while all the people she was close to knew it was just a cover ID. No substance or depth, and just a way to keep a bit of private life from general public. Definitely would not depower as Diana Prince, though.

    Though I'm not opposed to a more in-depth life as Diana, either.
    I see your point. We get bits here and there of the other heroes outside of their super-hero duties, and I think WW would benefit from the same. It doesn't have to be a constant. Heck, an occasional "day in the life" issue with her processing recent events as an epilogue every two or three story arcs would be good. A half-length second story in the annuals might work as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    While I like Superman being first hero, I think my concern in what you're suggesting is much more in terms of Steve and him being there for her first leaving of the island, and there at the beginning of the story. He's the character that theoretically gets harmed the most.
    I see your point. They could have him be there for her at WWII, but without any romantic undertones, then have his grandson or great grandson be there for her in the modern age and have that be the one where there's a chance of romance. I'll always prefer the pre-crisis setup for this, as it gave us an older Steve and Diana with Lyta as their adult daughter in the present. I just don't think anything satisfactory approaching the All-Star Squadron/Infinity Inc runs of the 80s is going to happen. I'd love it if it did, but I doubt we'll get it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    But I'm also a fan of not having the JSA on the same earth (at least at the same time) as the JLA, because, as someone else said, they can't be the premiere hero team if the Justice League exists.
    I'd prefer the JSA on their own Earth if they'd cross over with JLA once a year and have their own ongoing series. JSA Infinity would work just fine! I just don't think we'd get that if they are on their own Earth.

  10. #70
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    I see your point. We get bits here and there of the other heroes outside of their super-hero duties, and I think WW would benefit from the same.
    I do agree with that. I love personal lives. Would these stories, in your opinion, be best served by her regular supporting cast (my preference) or new or very tertiary characters? If by regular cast, would you want them to know her identity?

    They could have him be there for her at WWII, but without any romantic undertones, then have his grandson or great grandson be there for her in the modern age and have that be the one where there's a chance of romance
    No point in that to me. It's not the same character, so why does it even matter that they're related? And I probaly wouldn't want stories passed down - little to Sarah Connor/Kyle Reese for me. Which I liked in Terminator, but don't really care to see again.

    I'd prefer the JSA on their own Earth if they'd cross over with JLA once a year and have their own ongoing series. JSA Infinity would work just fine! I just don't think we'd get that if they are on their own Earth.
    My first response was to say that I'd like the ongoing, but not the crossover. Especially with such long-going stories now, it'd be an interruption in flow. Though I do think more single-issue stories would make comics more accessible to a casual reader (particularly kids). Even limiting to four or five issues generally and not having so many crossover events (requiring someone to buy 30 comics to know the full story) would help.

    But then I thought of the idea of initial crossovers with a story style more modern than what we had for first crossovers in the comics. Which characters just find it interesting how their alternate self's life went, but don't think that much of it, versus thinking about their own life and whether they are "supposed" to marry a certain person, have a certain child, or lose a certain loved one? Certain personality types could really get hung up on this. It could be interesting. Though I think I'd resolve it by the third crossover, or it'd get tedious.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 06-22-2019 at 08:41 PM.

  11. #71
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    The only reason Diana Prince existed was because everyone else had a secret identity and so WW had to have regardless of if it made any sense for the character.

  12. #72
    Fantastic Member mikelmcknight72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I do agree with that. I love personal lives. Would these stories, in your opinion, be best served by her regular supporting cast (my preference) or new or very tertiary characters? If by regular cast, would you want them to know her identity?
    They'd need to re-establish a suitable regular cast. Draw from the past as much as possible, some would know her dual identity, some wouldn't. Whatever is appropriate for the character. Sometimes, it'd be fun to see her and some of the other JLA affiliated ladies (Dinah, Kendra, Lois, Jessica, etc) doing a ladies night. Very appropriate for Diana.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    No point in that to me. It's not the same character, so why does it even matter that they're related? And I probaly wouldn't want stories passed down - little to Sarah Connor/Kyle Reese for me. Which I liked in Terminator, but don't really care to see again.
    I'm not invested in the WWII Steve, so just keep him in the modern age, then. She'd go straight into the JSA during WWII and have people then who'd help her get acclimated to the world. In the modern age, with no world war, the story would have more room for having a friend/guide/potential love interest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    My first response was to say that I'd like the ongoing, but not the crossover. Especially with such long-going stories now, it'd be an interruption in flow. Though I do think more single-issue stories would make comics more accessible to a casual reader (particularly kids). Even limiting to four or five issues generally and not having so many crossover events (requiring someone to buy 30 comics to know the full story) would help.

    But then I thought of the idea of initial crossovers with a story style more modern than what we had for first crossovers in the comics. Which characters just find it interesting how their alternate self's life went, but don't think that much of it, versus thinking about their own life and whether they are "supposed" to marry a certain person, have a certain child, or lose a certain loved one? Certain personality types could really get hung up on this. It could be interesting. Though I think I'd resolve it by the third crossover, or it'd get tedious.
    Ideally, I'd like an All-Star/JSA series set during WWII, and a JSA Infinity series set in modern times. They could drop bits here and there about how they and their kids are the ages they physically appear to be in spite of the older heroes be in their 20s during WWII. Eventually, have a mini-series telling the story. and a JSA Infinity/Justice League crossover one a year. Either tell it across two issues of the two series, or use annuals. It'd be fun, and it'd be a callback to the crosovers back in the day that I still love to read.

  13. #73
    Boisterously Confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The only reason Diana Prince existed was because everyone else had a secret identity and so WW had to have regardless of if it made any sense for the character.
    To a certain degree it was a conformance to the (then barely emerged) tropes of the genre. However, the original point of giving WW a secret id was to give her an excuse to be near Trevor that also explained how she made her living.

  14. #74
    WAKANDA FOREVER! Falcon16's Avatar
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    no Grid post Rebirth

    please bring back Grid
    "I'll never wear my Power Ring again! It's been a curse to me!"

  15. #75
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    The character who I thought didn't need to hide his true identity was Doll Man. In fact, Doctor Roberts and Martha clearly know that Darrel Dane is the Doll Man, because they were there when it all happened. Yet around when the U.S. got involved in WW II, the writers have them forget that Darrel is Doll Man, without any explanation and Martha starts to play Lois Lane to his Clark Kent.

    Since Darrel is only six inches tall when he's Doll Man--it's unlikely anyone can really see what he looks like when he's in action, even though he doesn't wear a mask. The only people who do see him close up on a regular basis are Roberts and his daughter--they'd have to be blind not to know.

    That seems to be a case where the trope forced the creators to make a change to the characters for no reason other than they thought readers expected this kind of nonsense. By contrast, Marston and Peter did a good job of setting up the distinctions between Diana Prince and Wonder Woman. And in her role as General Darnell's secretary (he has a crush on her), Prince gets to do a lot of cool stuff that Wonder Woman wouldn't get to do, if she was living full time as a star-spangled super-hero.

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