What retcons do you least like?

[SuperiorIronman]

Barry's dead mom was always a dumb decision because they never followed through on it other than dead mom angst. But in addition to that it screwed up any sort of dynamic he has with Eobard Thawne because he's now only known for this. So at the end of the day the two are jerking off to the same issue without any ability to move past it. The dynamic is fairly one note as Eobard suffered the same fate as Green Goblin.

Identity Crisis and the rape of Sue is also one that's at the top of the shit list.

[Bluekey89]

Cassandra Cain not being Bruce's adopted daughter.

[Tzigone]

Cassandra Cain not being Bruce's adopted daughter.

I hated that, too. Though frankly, with her code name being "Orphan" I thought it was being telegraphed pretty heavily she'd be adopted soon (and take a new name). Silly me.

[Kyer]

Wally West being redone as a bi-racial punk kid.
Wally West having several screws loose.
Wally West not having joy in having the Speed Force.
Chunk being a kid.
Ma and Pa Kent being dead.
Barry's mother being dead.
Krypton being less than an ideal civilization.
I don't know what the heck they did with Superman's dog, but I hate it.

[nhienphan2808]

Every retcon of origins and personality done to all members of the Batfam since 2001 onwards, most notably the character derailment of Dick Grayson. I like UTRH, it still makes no sense for Jason to come back.
Oh and Bruce Wayne being the First Robin in the Silver Age.

[Tzigone]

Every retcon of origins and personality done to all members of the Batfam since 2001 onwards, most notably the character derailment of Dick Grayson.

'80s and '90s Dick is my favorite character. He's seemingly since then bounced between Batman-lite, a philanderer, and an immature man-child who doesn't think. I actually didn't like the retcon a little before that (at least I think it started with Dixon) having him put in the juvenile detention center instead of early-post-COIE nice-nun-orphanage. Why do they have to keep adding more angst and suffering - I think his parents murdered was bad enough.

I didn't like the Court of Owls bit, either. I have real issues with "it's all connected" and villains and secret societies and such being back-projected into character's pasts. I don't like Bruce meeting Ra's before he becomes Batman, either. And there are just way too many examples of this to start counting.

I like UTRH, it still makes no sense for Jason to come back.

I'm kind of "meh" on it since I don't read him in present except for crossover (not generally an anti-hero fan), and revivals from the dead happen so very often that he's not exceptional to me in that regard. I do like that people now address how he was unfairly victim-blamed for his own death, though.

Oh and Bruce Wayne being the First Robin in the Silver Age.

Yeah, that was silly. Don't care for Thomas' costume-party Batman, either. But I find it so easy to disregard some of the sillier silver age stuff (or unfortunate personalities of love interests like Lois Lane or Steve Trevor) that I don't really think of them when thinking of retcons, though I really should.

[nhienphan2808]

Tzigone, are you just me but more well read and written.

'80s and '90s Dick is my favorite character.

Same. When people generally say "Preboot Dick Grayson is a detective and so good he's only behind Bruce himself, best [insert things that's not his nice guy attitude here]" it's already only nostalgia from pre-0 Hour.

He's seemingly since then bounced between Batman-lite, a philanderer, and an immature man-child who doesn't think.

Because the Batfamily and the Rougue gallery has become crowded and to have them shine and develop they keep having to nerf and de-complex him i feel. Devin Grayson and Didio were there at this time too.

I actually didn't like the retcon a little before that (at least I think it started with Dixon) having him put in the juvenile detention center instead of early-post-COIE nice-nun-orphanage. Why do they have to keep adding more angst and suffering - I think his parents murdered was bad enough.

YES same. Oh my god Chuck Dixon failed me so hard with everything he writes post Prodigal (even in that his Dick kinda sounded weaker willed than say, Alan Grant's Dick) . Devin Grayson is another thing, but Dick's origin got worse the more he writes and i hate that more than just a bad writer. I think it's because Dick LOOKS like he's the easiest to add drama among the fam. He attracts female readers, while Bruce is Bruce, Jason is the dead son and Tim is the best Robin DC tried to built .

My problem is they just doesn't think of the underlining issues when they add more drama into his back story. The idea that Bruce, a detective. doesn't think of the consequence when leaving him in a bad orphanage is bad. And in Nightwing vol 2 he implied that Donna is a love interest. Really? Also with Dick's Year One typed stuff Dixon just basically said that 89-94 Dick never happened and the Titans are failure. The retcon that Babs was as young and Dick's childhood love is really the derailment i was talking about, only made worse by Batgod fired him in NW YO . Ive whined about how his Titans history suffered from that, but you mean he loved her but he was never there when she was shot or when he knew Jason died? NW annual 2 when he cheated when his biggest fight with bruce about Jason's death was RIGHT THERE is only the last nail in the coffin. And again i just don't think they thought this through, what it implied or rememberẻd that kind of history. They just sees Dick and used him for drama.

didn't like the Court of Owls bit, either. I have real issues with "it's all connected" and villains and secret societies and such being back-projected into character's pasts.

I still want to read what Snyder had in mind for Dick regarding the COO as in Dickbat's story like it was originally intended through. Yet another retcon that takes away from Dick.

I'm kind of "meh" on it since I don't read him in present except for crossover (not generally an anti-hero fan), and revivals from the dead happen so very often that he's not exceptional to me in that regard. I do like that people now address how he was unfairly victim-blamed for his own death, though.

Agreed with all of this. I hate Millerbat and am not into THAT kind of anti-hero. He should have stayed dead and served as a lesson for the family, not wrecking them some more to live up to his bad reputation.

And Identity Crisis for Tim...yikes.

[Tzigone]

And in Nightwing vol 2 he implied that Donna is a love interest. Really?

I am absolutely in love with the platonic friendship Dick and Donna had in the Titans days. I really liked Vic and Gar's too. But male/female friendships (esp. between attractive, similarly aged characters) have been less likely to persist in fiction as non-romantic in the past. I disliked how every relationship has to be romantic to count, to really matter. In recent years (decades?) that's more heavily expanded to same-sex friendship, too, which is equality, I guess, but still a shame. I love good friendships and family relationships. And was rather sad to see Donna seemingly supplanted by Wally as Dick's bff.

The retcon that Babs was as young and Dick's childhood love is really the derailment i was talking about, only made worse by Batgod fired him in NW YO

I dislike that, too. I actually love DickBabs. As adults. With her not being de-aged or made Batman's protege (I feel she was demoted - deeply dislike Batgirl Year One). Maybe keep the flirtation of the 1970s, but nothing really happened then. Then, later they become closer again and fall in love. And yes, he was in love with Kory at one time, but sometimes relationships fail and love ends, and that's what happened. But don't pretend he was carrying a torch for Barbara all that time, please.

He should have stayed dead and served as a lesson for the family, not wrecking them some more to live up to his bad reputation.

There I disagree - I think him being an example/lesson was always used in a way that victim-blamed and misrepresented him.

While it made for drama, I think retconning both how Dick became Nightwing and the particular mentality Bruce had when taking in Jason (not necessarily his new background) post-COIE really helped further just how far Bruce has dropped on the parenting scale, and how he treats his family in general. If it had been a single incident in time, that would have been one thing. Instead, in hindsight, it was an early step (not first) in continuing to make Bruce a less and less enjoyable character to me. Not saying it was a bad business move, obviously.

[nhienphan2808]

There I disagree - I think him being an example/lesson was always used in a way that victim-blamed and misrepresented him.

I mean not as in a lesson for later Robin like DC sometimes tried to tell us, but as in an experience for Bruce and Dick. Pre-crisis passing of Robin is how i like it, but post-crisis kinda redeemed itself when i realised Bruce's true failure is not ever telling Dick from jason coming to Jason dying; his mistake is on Dick and the Robin mantle. Pre-crisis Jason's lucky because he got to know Dick and understood Robin and got out to the Titans, while post crisis Jason never did. The development of Bruce never dared to talk to Dick after that made sense, as well as Dick coming back and training the next Robin was nice, that meant he learned a lesson in forgiving his father. Also what was rettconed out with the 2000s retcons too - as said it looks like 87-94 Dick never existed. I draw the line at 2001 because in 1999, when Bruce gave Batgirl to Cass in No man's land, Dick still had that agency to look at Babs like "Did he talk to you before he did that bc i swear to God." Lol. Jason being alive just stated everything bad dc said about him was true. UTRH worked as a standalone story and should only work as that.

[Arsenal]

UTH easily could of been the beginning of a larger story of Bruce being given a second chance to save the son he failed to save the first time around. Could've been used to allow Bruce to grow by forcing him to take accountability for his his role in the events of DITF/the lead up to it and working to improve his relations with his current partners/family to avoid the same thing from happening to them.

The only reason UTH works "best" as a standalone story is because DC didn't bother to do anything with it beside tell worse versions of the orginal.

As for some retcons I don't like, only one that comes to mind is Morrison randomly turning Jason Todd into natural red head and using black hair dye to explain why he's had black hair in every single one of his (post-crisis) prior appearances regardless of if it made sense or not.

There are probably more but all the ones that I can think of at the moment have already been covered ITT.

[Tzigone]

As for some retcons I don't like, only one that comes to mind is Morrison randomly turning Jason Todd into natural red head and using black hair dye to explain why he's had black hair in every single one of his (post-crisis) prior appearances regardless of if it made sense or not.

Well, it's not random. Like you said, he was a redhead in pre-crisis. I mean, it's really stupid, but it's not random; it's hearkening back to a specific prior reality. Jason really was horribly written there for a while, with absolutely no consistency of personality, etc.

[nhienphan2808]

Except his hair was blond, not red. And making Bruce forcing him to dye his hair is really creepy and shows Morrison has no understanding of Bruce and anyone Batfam. His Dick is kinda weird too if I looked hard enough, I am just not sure how to say it.

[Arsenal]

Well, it's not random. Like you said, he was a redhead in pre-crisis. I mean, it's really stupid, but it's not random; it's hearkening back to a specific prior reality. Jason really was horribly written there for a while, with absolutely no consistency of personality, etc.

Perhaps random was the wrong choice of word. I understand where the red hair came from but the pre and post crisis versions of the characters are so vastly different that the sudden change of post crisis Jason being a natural red head (among other things) didn't make much sense at all.

[Tzigone]

And making Bruce forcing him to dye his hair is really creepy and shows Morrison has no understanding of Bruce and anyone Batfam.

It is creepy, but the way Batman picked up post-crisis, called him "Robin" (instead of his name) and basically made it seem living with him was contingent on being Robin (though Jason was all for being Robin) was also creepy. And so was the "test" on Tim's 16th birthday. There's been a lot of creepy parenting from Bruce. Though I think Morrison's writing of Jason was bad.

[nhienphan2808]

Could've been used to allow Bruce to grow by forcing him to take accountability for his his role in the events of DITF/the lead up to it and working to improve his relations with his current partners/family to avoid the same thing from happening to them.

He has learned. Tim and Dick helped save him, and the family grew larger. Up to 2000 that is. Everything went ugly and ooc after that, no wonder Jason was angry.