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  1. #16
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    yeah, I mean Clark in addition to having cool powers, has great villains, Pararsite, Bizarro, Lex, etc. What's not to like?

  2. #17
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    I think Batman simply represents the times we live in, and our true aspirations, better than Superman does.

    Not many people, if any, dream about having God-like powers, but using them not for selfish purposes but to serve people...while also remaining ever humble and not wanting to really rock the boat. Granted, that's not really how Superman has always been depicted, but it is how a LOT of people perceive the character, rightly or wrongly.

    But almost everyone has felt wronged by someone at some point, and loves the idea that they can empower themselves to get justice with their own bare hands - that they can terrorize the people who terrorize them and those they love.

    Superman was the kid who grew up with the power to change the world and has this general mission of 'doing good' without really upsetting or offending anyone.

    Batman was the kid who grew up empowering himself to wage a war against the kind of people who killed his parents, at any cost.

    If you look at the Donner Superman movie, how much agency does Clark really have? He's told by his adoptive dad that he shouldn't be living a normal teenage life because he's been put on earth 'for a reason'. He then spends 12 years basically being indoctrinated by his biologicad dad, who gives him his costume and his mission, while also setting rules like "It is forbidden to interfere in human history". He basically serves as Superman because that's the mission he's been given. About the only time he really shows some agency and does something for himself is when he goes back in time to save Lois Lane. And of course, in the second movie, when he gives up his powers to live a normal life with Lois - something that is ultimately shown to be the wrong decision throughout the movie.

    And bear in mind that this depiction of Superman remains foremost in the minds of a large section of casual fans and general audiences.

    Contrast this with Batman. He puts on that suit and goes out into the night, fighting crime, because he wants to. He beats the crap out of criminals who hurt other people because they remind him of the criminal who killed his parents, and he's sworn that no other person will suffer what he did. There's a very specific blend of heroism and revenge fantasy to Batman that is innately appealing. Believing in it allows us to feel righteous while at the same time empowered. Batman's mission is, on one level, a nobel mission for justice, but its also a highly cathartic one that we can get behind without being saints.

  3. #18
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Poor Man of Steel just fell victim to the feedback cycle. Things that are praised and popular lead people in with a ton of optimism, and bad feedback prompts people to come out of the woodwork to bash it.

    I think it was miles ahead of the old stuff, although it came a good 35 years after Reeve did his thing.
    I think MoS was miles ahead of the current superhero movie wave, too. It was serious and attempted to tackle some serious issues in a age where, it seems, people assumed a superhero movie had to be a fun, dumb, loud bombastic adventure with lots of snappy one-liners. Yknow, the Marvel method. Then movies like Logan and Deadpool hit, and Marvel got more serious with Infinity War-Endgame.

    It can definitely be argued that Superman doesnt fit that "dramatic" mold the way Logan does (a total fair critique) but I also dont think MoS was as far off from the character as people think. It was just far off from what people expected (and what they expected was another Donner clone). I believe that, in time, people will look back at MoS and see it for the quality movie it is, rather than bitching because it didn't give them another dose of Donner. History will validate that film, though I dont think BvS or JL will ever be seen in a better light.
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  4. #19
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    I think Batman simply represents the times we live in, and our true aspirations, better than Superman does.
    I think that's somewhat true. Batman, he appeals to the lowest common denominator. He tells us its okay to let the bad days rule you and control you. He's cool in a very basic, very simple "high school" sorta way. Superman demands more. Superman takes the high road, which is harder and doesn't have the same kind of instant gratification. It takes a little more maturity to see the nuance and complexity behind Superman, and people don't want to have to think or work at seeing the appeal.

    Clark's all about restraint as well, which isn't something people are good at these days. And I believe that today, people don't really "get" the purpose of Clark Kent. Everyone posts every stupid aspect of their lives on social media and wants to be internet famous, and here's a guy who's the most impressive person alive and he's hiding it from everyone. Not many people, especially younger ones, are going to understand why Clark would want a normal life where he's basically invisible. Bruce on the other hand, is a tabloid sensation in both identities; the kewl vigilante beating up people because mommy and daddy got shot in one life, the playboy billionaire driving million dollar cars in the other.

    It's actually similar to the current Justice/Doom war that Snyder is building in Justice League. People have to decide if they want to give in to their base emotions or rise up and be better and aim for something more significant. And a lot of people in the book are accepting Lex's offer of Doom so they can settle their own petty scores or see their own selfish wishes come true. To be a Superman fan, you gotta look up and aim higher while with Batman, he justifies everyone's knee-jerk reactions and desires for revenge against those who pissed us off.
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  5. #20
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    That twist in perception is why I use a lot of quotation marks. Batman is every bit as blessed as Superman in his narrative, and he's literally a rich guy who drives to the city from his mansion to bust heads. Captain America is no more a factor of agency than Superman and right now you can't even compare them in pop culture popularity. You may say that Steve's recent relevance isn't the same as what Batman has overall, but that goes for every single comic character so it's not really Superman vs Batman. Sure Superman came first. The Dreamcast was a phenomenal gaming console killed by the sheer hype of the incoming competition, being first usually doesn't mean staying competitive.
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  6. #21
    WAKANDA FOREVER! Falcon16's Avatar
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    Superman IS Batman.
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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ascended View Post
    i think that's somewhat true. Batman, he appeals to the lowest common denominator. He tells us its okay to let the bad days rule you and control you. He's cool in a very basic, very simple "high school" sorta way. Superman demands more. Superman takes the high road, which is harder and doesn't have the same kind of instant gratification. It takes a little more maturity to see the nuance and complexity behind superman, and people don't want to have to think or work at seeing the appeal.

    Clark's all about restraint as well, which isn't something people are good at these days. And i believe that today, people don't really "get" the purpose of clark kent. Everyone posts every stupid aspect of their lives on social media and wants to be internet famous, and here's a guy who's the most impressive person alive and he's hiding it from everyone. Not many people, especially younger ones, are going to understand why clark would want a normal life where he's basically invisible. Bruce on the other hand, is a tabloid sensation in both identities; the kewl vigilante beating up people because mommy and daddy got shot in one life, the playboy billionaire driving million dollar cars in the other.

    It's actually similar to the current justice/doom war that snyder is building in justice league. People have to decide if they want to give in to their base emotions or rise up and be better and aim for something more significant. And a lot of people in the book are accepting lex's offer of doom so they can settle their own petty scores or see their own selfish wishes come true. To be a superman fan, you gotta look up and aim higher while with batman, he justifies everyone's knee-jerk reactions and desires for revenge against those who pissed us off.
    well said!!!!!

  8. #23

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    “I think Batman simply represents the times we live in, and our true aspirations, better than Superman does.”

    Technically, can actually take some of what Superman does and apply it to real life. We can be kind to people. We can help people when possible. Just little things. However, what did I see this week at work. One lady had her lunch stolen from the refrigerator. Lunch marked with her name. I saw a supervisor loading up overworked employees but taking off early 3 out of 5 days. I listen to the same supervisor rage about his cable service and then take delight in calling a cable rep and “terrorizing” them. His own words. I see a lot more people angry at the world than I do compassionate Superman types.

    I just think Superman represents pretty lofty goals that not many try to emulate.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    It can definitely be argued that Superman doesnt fit that "dramatic" mold the way Logan does (a total fair critique) but I also dont think MoS was as far off from the character as people think. It was just far off from what people expected (and what they expected was another Donner clone). I believe that, in time, people will look back at MoS and see it for the quality movie it is, rather than bitching because it didn't give them another dose of Donner. History will validate that film, though I dont think BvS or JL will ever be seen in a better light.
    BvS might have "cult classic" in its future, but I don't think it will ever be wholly embraced.

    MOS is the best of the three by a landslide, even though it's seriously flawed. I agree that I think I like it better than most of the current superhero slate that the trend has offered us. For better or worse, it's more memorable. But knowing how the arc ultimately finishes in the subsequent films, and where Snyder was seemingly planning to go had he been allowed his full vision, kind of sours the whole experience and retroactively makes MOS seems worse to me than it did initially.

    And Cavill and Adams will, I think, go down as some of the biggest examples of wasted opportunities in CBMs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I think that's somewhat true. Batman, he appeals to the lowest common denominator. He tells us its okay to let the bad days rule you and control you. He's cool in a very basic, very simple "high school" sorta way. Superman demands more. Superman takes the high road, which is harder and doesn't have the same kind of instant gratification. It takes a little more maturity to see the nuance and complexity behind Superman, and people don't want to have to think or work at seeing the appeal.
    And it's a shame that those are the things about Batman that appeal the most to people.

    Its why I prefer older takes on him to modern takes on the character. I appreciate somewhat the basic idea that BvS just took all this stuff and cast him in an antagonistic light, albeit one where he is still sympathetic and learns a lesson. But I'd rather just avoid it altogether and have a fun, mature Batman who isn't seeking revenge and reveling in darkness.

    We need Dick Grayson in the new films ASAP.

  10. #25
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I think MoS was miles ahead of the current superhero movie wave, too. It was serious and attempted to tackle some serious issues in a age where, it seems, people assumed a superhero movie had to be a fun, dumb, loud bombastic adventure with lots of snappy one-liners. Yknow, the Marvel method. Then movies like Logan and Deadpool hit, and Marvel got more serious with Infinity War-Endgame.
    It's funny because I finally sat down with Thanos Part 1 for Christmas and couldn't believe how the first half hour was just that Marvel banter. Meanwhile Jor El attended his son's birth by flying through the traffic of a combat zone on a dragon. I can't really compare this Superman trilogy with all of Marvel because that's like 23 movies, but MoS as a one shot really tried to do everything. Well, except humor really. But the other emotions are just as valuable and I find it good when a movie can channel those.

    Reading some of the RT reviews hurt my feelings. "It didn't have phone booths!" Damn Ascended, I guess you're right. Some other review complained that the crucifixion of Spider-Man in his second film was better than the christlike pose as Superman fell into space. What...? There are like 20 million of these comments. The same thing happened to the recent Fantastic Four movie, and it will always have me sore. 20 million bad reviews and 5 million ticket sales. That rant aside but since we're on Fox, they sure are all or nothing. If you like MoS you may appreciate the ideas in the next two films, but liking Logan and Deadpool has nothing to do with the bad ones, like Last Stand and Origins.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I think that's somewhat true. Batman, he appeals to the lowest common denominator. He tells us its okay to let the bad days rule you and control you. He's cool in a very basic, very simple "high school" sorta way. Superman demands more. Superman takes the high road, which is harder and doesn't have the same kind of instant gratification. It takes a little more maturity to see the nuance and complexity behind Superman, and people don't want to have to think or work at seeing the appeal.

    Clark's all about restraint as well, which isn't something people are good at these days. And I believe that today, people don't really "get" the purpose of Clark Kent. Everyone posts every stupid aspect of their lives on social media and wants to be internet famous, and here's a guy who's the most impressive person alive and he's hiding it from everyone. Not many people, especially younger ones, are going to understand why Clark would want a normal life where he's basically invisible. Bruce on the other hand, is a tabloid sensation in both identities; the kewl vigilante beating up people because mommy and daddy got shot in one life, the playboy billionaire driving million dollar cars in the other.
    All well said. As a die-hard fan of the other guy, I feel like the Begins writers got it with Falcone calling angry Bruce out. But then they had Bane... train him in obtaining street cred? Didn't get that plot.
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  11. #26
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Reading some of the RT reviews hurt my feelings. "It didn't have phone booths!" Damn Ascended, I guess you're right.
    I think with most characters you're right; the fans have expectations and everyone else just want to be entertained. But this is Superman. Everyone thinks they know who and what he is. My grandmother never read a comic in her life, never watched the shows or movies or listened to the radio serial, and even she "knew" who and what Superman was.

    Clark's not just a fictional character, he's basically the god of pop culture. People who know nothing about Superman still have very strong opinions on what Superman is and what he should be and what he should do. And gods have mercy on you if you tell a story that doesn't match those ideas, no matter how wrong they actually are.

    All well said. As a die-hard fan of the other guy, I feel like the Begins writers got it with Falcone calling angry Bruce out. But then they had Bane... train him in obtaining street cred? Didn't get that plot.
    Yeah, I didn't really get all of that either. Honestly, I feel like DKR was a mess compared to the other two films. I dunno if Ledger's death forced Nolan and Goyer to totally change the story they wanted to tell or what happened, but you can see the quality and vision of those movies drop pretty hard with DKR. Still not a bad movie, but it doesn't stand up with the others.

    And as much as I bitch about Batman being an emotionally stunted emo bitch, I actually like the concept and character......when he's not written in the framework Frank Miller provided, or like the Batgod who soaks up all the intelligence in the room so everyone else looks like a moron, just so Bruce can look useful. Bronze Age Batman is great. The Batman we have in the modern era? He's great sometimes, but mostly just annoys me.
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  12. #27
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    We need Dick Grayson in the new films ASAP.
    ......maybe.

    I would be all over a *quality* Nightwing film. Love Dick Grayson! To hell with Billy Batson, it's Dick Grayson who's the world's greatest human! But I dont trust WB enough yet to believe they could do Dick justice.
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  13. #28
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    Batman has nothing to do with it. It's just a mishandling/misunderstanding of the character. I find that a lot of people have begun to become fans of these misunderstandings though, as they begin to crawl into the general concept- so I wonder if it even is possible to do Superman justice?

    I feel like it very much is, but it would be a pretty big undertaking.
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTTT View Post
    for the record I love both characters and read both titles, but when it comes to Superman/Clark's popularity, I feel like his popularity takes a hit because of his other media. The comics portray Clark as a complex character and he's had a lot of great arcs and fun stuff from Golden to present. The tv series and movies from the 70s and 80s is where he takes a hit because they decide to paint him as a human or alien AMERICAN FLAG!! TRUTH JUSTICE AND THE AMERICAN WAY!, so they decided to turn on the cheese to Mach 25 levels. Clark in the movies is painted as this bumbling dork and his entire motivation for saving humanity is Lois. That's it. And he's so much more than that. So because of that perception, no wonder people find him a boring character who flies and has powers and is un relatable. Meanwhile, Batman and his family rise in popularity because a) he's human and b) he kicks ass with his fighting skills and has a kick ass costume. And now with the recent films, Superman can't even get a sequel by himself, he has to paired with Batman.
    1. If anyone started this "Superman is an american flag" stuff, it was probably the comics themselves.

    2. DCEU Superman is pretty much the only Superman who is arguably motivated by his love for Lois, and even then, I wouldn't say that that's true in the "Man of Steel" film.

    3. You knock the 70's and 80's stuff, but that's probably the last time Superman media had the same kind of pop culture resonance as, say, Nolan Batman. Christopher Reeve, who portrayed Clark as a bumbling dork, remains one of the most beloved versions of Superman/Clark.

  15. #30
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBatman View Post
    2. DCEU Superman is pretty much the only Superman who is arguably motivated by his love for Lois, and even then, I wouldn't say that that's true in the "Man of Steel" film.
    This is largely true because the DCEU is a shorter story with fewer creative minds involved. However, if you look at stuff like Injustice or the DCAU episode "Brave New Metropolis," there are creators who are in lockstep with the DCEU guys in that regard.

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