Wheel of Time

[Gray Lensman]

Personally I think spoilers:

if you're going to make Egwene one, why not Nyneve while we're at it? That change makes more sense to me because then all 5 of the Edmond's Fielders are one.

end of spoilers

An aside, do we need a season one spoiler thread??

On that...spoilers:

I think that is part of what Morraine's conversation with Nyneave is about. By getting her age she is able to dismiss her as a possibility. It isn't well highlighted in the show, but in the books Morraine has the exact date of birth for the person she is looking for - the rest of the Two Rivers group is supposed to have been born over a span of less than a week. Pair that with no real records and any of the rest become a possibility. As far as the source is concerned, one of the episode titles is Saidin, Saidar, Stone, so I think two halves will come up later.

end of spoilers

[Gray Lensman]

I've not read the books, but I've enjoyed it so far. It does seem a bit generic LotR influenced fantasy, but that is the genre I guess. I thought all the cast were good, which is why I was surprised to see that Mat Cauthon has been recast for season 2, with Barney Harris departing, to be replaced by Donal Finn. I wonder what the story was there?

No one knows what that story is yet, nobody involved with the show has said a thing, nor has Barney Harris. His IMDB page doesn't list anything past Wheel of Time at the moment. It at least doesn't seem to be bad blood, otherwise someone would have talked by now.

[Tony]

This show is hot garbage.

They should be embarrassed they used the names. Honestly, just read the first book. The whole tone is off, they diverge from damn near everything, and what the hell was the point of the wife? Ooh, look how edgy and dark we are, hey did yah see we added "the sexy time" too? So adult.

I hear they dropped a lot of cash on this. Money waisted.

[Zero Hunter]

I think my big complaint about the book has sadly so far transferred over to the show, and that's the fact that the characters seem really underdeveloped. The world and mythology is really interesting...but there isn't enough time spent with any one character to really provide and "in"

Dude it has been a couple episodes. I am sure we will get more character development as things go along, but they had to get the world and story kicked off before that.

[Gray Lensman]

Dude it has been a couple episodes. I am sure we will get more character development as things go along, but they had to get the world and story kicked off before that.

On top of that they want to emphasize the ensemble cast, slowing down development in order to spend time with each of the core 7.

[thwhtGuardian]

Dude it has been a couple episodes. I am sure we will get more character development as things go along, but they had to get the world and story kicked off before that.

As I said, it was an issue in the first novel as well, and one that I hoped the series could avoid...but it didn't. It's been three episodes and all we have are D&D class archetypes, and three episodes is not a short period of time.

[Ascended]

I saw a headline the other day that read something like "Thank god, the WoT isn't horrible" and that's about how I feel. It's not horrible and that's a relief....but that's not saying it's *good* either.

This is my all time favorite novel series. I've read all fifteen books five or six times. My expectations for an adaptation are impossibly high. And I expected this show to fail. Like Dune, I considered WoT to be unfilmable; you've got hundreds of characters, dozens of factions, tons of dense prose and narration, the story unfolds over the course of years, and even minor things tend to matter down the line.

To try and squeeze all that story, successfully, into any live action project seemed impossible.

But this show gets at least halfway there, which is better than the trainwreck I feared it would be.

The casting is damn near perfect and everyone gives solid performances. A lot of the changes they made to the books streamline things....adequately. Everyone is pointed in the direction they should be at this point in the story. The set design and costuming are beyond superb, the clothes and locations looks just like I pictured them in my head (except the Whitecloaks, who look far more interesting than I pictured). Channeling looks as good as could reasonably be expected. Thom doesn't have his giant mustaches and I'll never forgive the showrunners for that great sin but otherwise I am extremely pleased with the visuals.

I'm trying to be accepting of the changes they're making to the story. Intellectually I know this story needs to be streamlined and changed to fit the format, but emotionally I refuse to accept anything that isn't a word for word, perfect translation. So far though, the changes they're making seem fairly harmless; mostly streamlining the story, trying to shroud the Dragon's identity with meaningless extra subplots and juggling a few scenes that weren't too far removed from each other anyway. Some of this could have huge implications down the road but for right now it's mostly harmless. And I like the changes they've made to who the Dragon might be. That might screw with a few things later (the tale's density means the ripple effects could get quite out of hand for any change...) but it makes some characters feel more central to this early plot.

My biggest problems so far is that the show hasn't done enough to establish the stakes. We're told the world is broken. We see lots of old ruins and hear about even more. But none of it comes close to the reality of the Breaking of the World. The show uses some colorful language like "the oceans boiled" but that is a terrible understatement.

And they really don't do a great job establishing the Dragon's place in everything. They tell us he caused the Breaking, they tell us the Dragon Reborn will save the world, but they largely ignore the fact that the Dragon, if they save the world at all, will do it by breaking everything again. And *that's* the best case scenario; partial obliteration rather than total obliteration. The Dragon's name is cursed across the land, most people see him as no better than the Dark One, and the show really ignores the fact that the Dragon could very well destroy everything and save nothing. The Dragon Reborn is not a hero out of legend. It's a purifying inferno that burns everything in its path so that new things can grow, which is little comfort to the ones burning. And I fear this show will ignore that complexity and give audiences some basic hero's journey we already got from Luke Skywalker.

And this isn't a big deal but it irks me on a personal level; Moiraine is far too flippant with her identity. There's no sense of secret urgency; Moiraine isn't reluctantly whispering secrets in locked rooms, fearful of Myrddraal lurking at the keyhole. She's waving her ring under everyone's noses. She's talking in the middle of town about how a local kid might be a hellish figure from history returned to life and destined to burn the world a second time. Where's the fear of the Dark One catching up and finding them? The fear that anyone who hears those secrets will become a violent mob intent on her death and the premature death of the Dragon Reborn? Where's Moiraine, the famous secret keeper who shared nothing she didn't have to? I get that the exposition requirements are steep and fast, but it would have set a better atmosphere and tone if she took a few seconds of screen time to herd people out of earshot of an entire, ignorant village and into a private room before sharing secrets she kept for twenty years.

It's a fair show. These are early episodes and there's every chance it'll smooth itself out as it goes. Lots of good stuff to work with here. And that first novel was rough around the edges so it's not surprising the show is too. But "fair" is about all I can call it right now. Which is better than I feared, but not as good as I had dreamed.

[AnakinFlair]

I've never read the books- when I heard the author had died before finishing, that took away any desire I might have had to read them back in the day. I do know the series was finished by another author using the original author's notes, but when I hear of a 'slough' of books to get through before it gets good again, that doesn't exactly entice me into reading the series.

But I never read Tolkien before watching The Lord of the Rings, and I enjoyed those movies immensely. So I decided to give this a try.

And so far, it's... meh. Feels less Lord of the Rings, and more Xena and Hercules.

I don't think it's bad. Aside from some dodgy cgi, I think it looks pretty damn good. I like the settings, the costumes, and the casting effects were cool. The actors all seem very good, and keep me engrossed in the story. My main problem though is I can't keep character names straight yet. For a large ensemble case, in order for me to follow, I need to be able to identify and name the central characters. But it took me three episodes to figure out which one was Rand and which one was Mat. I don't remember the other two's names- I'm calling them Hagrid and Hermione for the moment. The only reason I remember the Asian man is called Lan is because I'm literally looking at the episode 3 description on Amazon on my tv as I am writing this.

With what Ascended was saying about the Breaking and the Dragon- I think this could have benefitted from a LOTR-type prologue flashback showing us this. Who knows- maybe we'll see it in a later episode.

I haven't had much luck getting into fantasy since LOTR. I never got into Game of Thrones (my sister, who is fantasy averse, did. And she loved it- up until that final season. Now she says she'll never watch a show like that again). But I'm comforted in knowing that at least, in this case, the complete source material- beginning, middle, and end- is already there to be adapted. So I'll give it the first season, then see where I'm at.

[Godlike13]

Less Lord of the Rings, and more Xena and Hercules sums it up pretty well for me too. Not terrible, but ya…

[CSTowle]

I'm a fan of the books, have reread several times (and there are a lot of them, and none of them short). So bad/good:

Bad: Moiraine not keeping information close to the vest. When she does blurt out the (what should be) Earth-shattering information that one of them is basically Christ come back who is also destined to destroy the world while saving it she comes off as if she were talking about a dead relative. It didn't have nearly the weight it should have. Having Thom in Emond's Field (sorry, the "Two Rivers") doing his Gleeman thing and telling the story of the last Breaking and the sealing away of the Dark One would have been an easy fix/expo dump. Her secret-keeping is what causes Rand and Mat to initially distrust her, despite it being for a logical reason. The same when they're talking about Shadar Logoth. She recites the story with all of the emotion of someone putting in a bagel order. Why not take a beat to show her face being serious, emphasizing the dangers involved there, emphasizing "touch nothing, stay together". Instead it's just, "hmm guess the monsters are scared of this place and oh, what's this shadowy bit". I don't understand folk saying she did a good job, so far to me she's not only failed to capture the essence of Moiraine but she's failed to do her job as a storyteller. Waving hands around bad CGI isn't going to get it done, unless the aim here is a lower tier Disney hero movie level of quality.

Perrin's wife. Enough said. Abell Cauthon. Man went with Tam to the damn White Tower to get his boy back, no picnic for any man, and went to Tarmon Gaidon with his Two Rivers longbow. He's not a scumbag. No Cenn Buie. You cast the man, let's see him sticking his fool nose into women's circle business. Padan Fain (for those who watched the show, the peddler who came to town). Should have been a bigger deal and another source of news in the world, as they're a backwater with no connections and the infrequent visits are a big deal. Instead he was introduced and faded into the background like an extra. Trollocs, no bird-faced ones I saw yet. Minor complaint, but give me beaks. Thom's mustache, though I suppose I can live with a flippable coat with colorful patches inside. The Tinkers also weren't colorful enough to make me puke, that was sad.

Mat. I disliked the first two episodes, was more focused on what they were doing wrong than the story (plus, know it well enough that it's not engaging to me personally). But that third episode gives me hope. They slowed down a bit and started to get it right, to the point where they diverged from the real story still worked. Why is that bad? Mat was done very well, and I've heard they're replacing the actor. So I'm getting attached to an actor for a character that is doomed to be replaced. That makes me sad. They've handled the others well enough, Nynaeve is even less annoying than her book self, Lan's not as scary or interesting as the book version and Moiraine's like I said not very good but the kids are done well so far. But Mat's the best and he's soon to be gone. So sadness.

Good: Basically that third episode. Establish who the characters are, start to build relationships (good or bad), and the storyline at the mining bar was handled very well. Introduce Thom (better late than never), and give a peek at the Aiel. If 4-8 are as good as 3 I can maybe overlook the bad. I really do hope Moiraine steps up, I know she's a supporting character but she's the hook that gets the mains where they need to go.

Edit: Was pointed out to me Moiraine was unconscious in the show, was Lan's bad acting. Also, on the subject of bad parts of the show: Whitecloaks having taken Aes Sedai rings as trophies and burning one at the stake. The point of them is that they harass regular folk and would love to harass Aes Sedai, might even be a threat if they could keep it secret, but would never willingly provoke the ire of the White Tower. It both elevates what is supposed to be a laughable faction of zealots into rivals of the Tower, and diminishes every Sister who are apparently the natural prey of the Whitecloaks in this turning of the Wheel.

[hulahulk]

I haven't read the books. The series so far is decent. Outstanding visuals with Moiraine's abilities.

And I'll be reading spoilers here; I don't mind them at all in this case.

[Ascended]

I've never read the books- when I heard the author had died before finishing, that took away any desire I might have had to read them back in the day. I do know the series was finished by another author using the original author's notes, but when I hear of a 'slough' of books to get through before it gets good again, that doesn't exactly entice me into reading the series.

There is indeed a lull in the novels but it's not that bad. Book 1 is rough around the edges but no worse than any story getting off the ground, and the series improves in both quality and narrative and does a fantastic job of getting you invested in the ever-increasingly complex story and cast. Books......3-8, I think, are utterly amazing and you can really feel the tale picking up steam and really getting somewhere. By book 4 the LotR trappings are gone, other than the obvious similarities of genre. Books 9-11 or so are weaker, some pieces of the story have to move around before other pieces can start moving again and that can be frustrating. Then books 12-14 (which is where the new writer, Brandon Sanderson takes over, and he did a phenomenal job) pick up the pace again and everything ends really, really strong.

And Sanderson not only had Jordan's notes to use in finishing the series, Jordan wrote huge chunks of the last few novels himself from the hospital bed. And it can be really hard sometimes to tell which was written by who. Sanderson came in to clean up, he didn't take over the story. Don't let the change in authorship chase you away. I had the same concerns, and hadn't read anything by Sanderson, but my fears were unfounded, Sanderson was a more than worthy successor and did right by Jordan, the story, and the fans.

I'm a fan so obviously I recommend the series despite the problem in the midpoint. There's a reason this series is considered one of the definitive entries in the "epic fantasy" genre and has held that title for decades. I won't lie, it's a lot; I don't exaggerate when I say there's hundreds of characters, dozens of factions, and even small things come back around later. But if you're not scared of big books and stories of this size you'll be hard pressed to find better.

Let me put it like this; if you read Harry Potter as a kid and loved it, this is the series you read as an adult.

With what Ascended was saying about the Breaking and the Dragon- I think this could have benefitted from a LOTR-type prologue flashback showing us this. Who knows- maybe we'll see it in a later episode.

The novels begin with that exact sequence. We see the Dragon and the Breaking.

In truth, the first time through, it's a bit weird. You don't get any real info on who these people are or why the Dragon has done what he has, and once the prologue ends you're introduced to a brand new set of characters. Over the course of the first novel you piece together what the connections are and what happened and it all starts to make sense and the implications start to settle in a very unsettling (but engrossing) way. But I think it would have worked well for this show; the scene is a true spectacle that would have been amazing on screen and then you do a fade to black with "4000 years later" and introduced Moiraine and the Two Rivers kids.

I'm a fan of the books, have reread several times (and there are a lot of them, and none of them short). So bad/good:

Pretty much agree with everything you said.

I'm trying real hard to be understanding of the changes they made. No way this series could be adapted 100% accurately for tv, though that's why my heart wanted. Even stuff like Perrin's wife and Mat's parents, I can more or less roll with because it's telling us who Perrin and Mat are. The novel tells us Mat's a loyal scoundrel and Perrin is the patient, mature one, but for live action you need something a bit more obvious than prose to express that. And I have hope that Abell Cauthon will prove himself later on and undo these "white trash" changes they made to him.

What I do take issue with, and this has to change or the show *will* fail, is stuff like Moiraine talking in public, sharing secrets that *should* be earth shattering where anyone can hear her. The show really has to lean into the apocalyptical terror of the Dragon Reborn and what their return means for the world. So far I don't feel the weight of that, almost like the show is embarrassed to have stakes that high. That sh*t gotta stop. But it's early on. As a fellow fan, I say we give it at least a few more episodes to find its balance. Once the story hits the Borderlands, I think we'll know whether the show can get it right or if they'll keep missing these small but crucial details.

I don't have a ton of hope, honestly. 2021 already did the impossible with a proper adaptation of Dune. I don't expect to get two impossible things this year. But with a little time to find its footing, I do believe there's a chance, however slim, of this show growing into the story.

[Gray Lensman]

I'll expand a little on what you have already said....

Brandon Sanderson - in addition to having Jordan's note, and several large sections written by Jordan himself, Sanderson was also working with Jordan's widow/editor - who had personally selected him to finish the series. In the final book, much of it is seamless, with people unable to tell the stuff Jordan wrote apart from the stuff Sanderson wrote - ask different people who wrote what and they may very well give credit for the same lines to different writers. Sanderson does take a little time to properly get Mat right in his first book, but that's the biggest fault I can find. On a side note.....read the Mistborn Trilogy. You'll be glad that you did.

As far as changes go, I have been following news of the series for a long time, so I knew changes were coming. The big thing is going to be if they bet the essence of the main characters right. Changes to minor characters are of less importance to me. I didn't like Perrin's wife and what happened to her, but I understand the need to externalize a struggle that in the books takes place via internal monologs. That's a bad fit for a genre that lives by the mantra of Show, Don't Tell. I'm willing to see where they go with it.

The changes to Mat's da are much easier to swallow. Abell is a very minor character in the books who really only gets lines in one of the fourteen books, and even then he is basically acting as Tam's sidekick. Abell has no story arc of his own, no character advancement, nor does he play a part in any other character's story arc outside of internal monolog. This is exactly the type of character who bets changed, combined with another, or cut entirely when adapted to another medium. Especially when it helps set up a main character's personal journey. In the books Mat is always saying that the is "No Bloody Hero" while performing deeds more heroic than any other two characters outside of Lan would even attempt. And that includes a hero of legend who outright states that they would only have done one of the things Mat does for their fated lover (who that person has a series Hawkman/Hawkgirl thing going on across multiple lives). Until the full circumstances get revealed and they state not even then, and that you should be thanking this guy from your knees. Basically, that is another character struggle that needs to be shown.

The Dragon Reborn is even getting a change as Lews Therin is a recurring character, so I think he will be seen in a manner similar to the imaginary friend from the opening of the series - because that's a struggle that needs to be seen rather than told.

I think we will see what the terrible reality of what being the Dragon Reborn means, perhaps as early as the next episode. We were given a very brief intro to the False Dragon Logain at the end of ep 3, and from following the news about filming I know there was supposed to be an attempted jailbreak - meaning that we will see a man channel, and possibly the early effects of Madness.

Lastly, there are indeed bird faced trollocs on screen, but they are very "blink and you'll miss it" appearances.

[Ascended]

The Dragon Reborn is even getting a change as Lews Therin is a recurring character, so I think he will be seen in a manner similar to the imaginary friend from the opening of the series - because that's a struggle that needs to be seen rather than told.

I think they might do a version of the novel's prologue *after* audiences learn who the Dragon Reborn is. A sort of "now you know who, here's the what" kind of thing.

And one more point about the show not living up to the scope, something I forgot all about until I started reading the series again this morning.....

The weather. When the book starts, it's supposed to be spring, things should be growing, farmers should be getting ready for planting. But winter is still holding on, months after it should have started to warm up.

For those who don't know, the weather, and the change of seasons, play a big role throughout the narrative and are a major point of proof that the Dark One is touching the world. To not mention this in the show does us all a disservice; there's something ominous about the seasons not changing like they should, it provides a source of constant worry and concern for people.....there's this invisible force, barely able to interact with the world, and its thrown the weather out of whack to such a degree it's a legitimate threat to every living thing. And these kids from the Two Rivers are expected to fight that force. In the grand scheme of things this isn't a big, flashy spectacle....but there are few better ways to showcase the scale of what the characters are up against than how it impacts the weather. And it would have been so easy for the showrunners to include, too......

Oh, and Mistborn is good, as are most of Sanderson's novels. WoT might be my favorite series ever, but Sanderson's Stormlight Archive (another giant saga of thick books, planned to be ten volumes long) just might surpass it when all is said and done (we're four books deep atm). I'd definitely recommend Stormlight, Mistborn, or any Sanderson book to a fantasy genre fan, but Stormlight above all others. Of course, many of Sanderson's books all happen within the same universe (called the Cosmere) so reading any one of those is enriched by reading them all.

[AndrewCrossett]

Meh. I gave it a shot.