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  1. #91
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beware Of Geek View Post
    Frankly, I can't think of ANY status quo change that would warrant a relaunch by the same writer. But then, I've been reading comics for a very long time, and I'm old-fashioned that way.
    I could maybe buy it if there was a mantle or protagonist change, but with the same writer.

  2. #92
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Why? Waid's run has been damn good. It stacks up very well against the best Strange has had.
    It's probably just me, but they're simply not what I think of when I think Dr. Strange, Sorcerer Supreme.

    When I think of Strange, I think "Master of sorcery charged with the responsibility of defending the Earth Dimension against the growing forces of darkness lurking beyond the mystic veil. Often fighting foes so powerful that cannot be simply defeated in power, but must be subdued, even if temporarily, by diplomacy and strategic thinking. Power struggles unseen by mortal men, which Strange is privy to, and partakes in for the sake of the all living things."

    If Waid's stories do fall into that, then I'll give them a another try.
    But the de-powering that's been constantly happening with Strange goes against it.
    The title and cover of the new book also doesn't give any indication that he's back to being full power and fighting the likes of Dormammu, Nightmare, Mephisto, Mordo, or even Belasco and whatever other new all-powerful other-dimensional entities that can be conjured up.
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  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Stone View Post
    It's probably just me, but they're simply not what I think of when I think Dr. Strange, Sorcerer Supreme.

    When I think of Strange, I think "Master of sorcery charged with the responsibility of defending the Earth Dimension against the growing forces of darkness lurking beyond the mystic veil. Often fighting foes so powerful that cannot be simply defeated in power, but must be subdued, even if temporarily, by diplomacy and strategic thinking. Power struggles unseen by mortal men, which Strange is privy to, and partakes in for the sake of the all living things."

    If Waid's stories do fall into that, then I'll give them a another try.
    But the de-powering that's been constantly happening with Strange goes against it.
    The previous arc was all about Strange being a total badass.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Although Strange's sales seemed steady enough that, again, I don't think a relaunch was necessary.
    My thought whenever fans complain about whether a relaunch was "necessary" is "what's it to you?"

    It's a silly thing to get hung up on. If you were going to buy the next issue that followed sequentially in a series, what's the difference in picking up a new #1 instead?

  5. #95
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    The previous arc was all about Strange being a total badass.
    I probably missed it because I don't remember the series starting out that way.
    Strange being de-powered and then seeing him in the Buck Rogers helmet was enough for me to write off the book and totally ignore it after. I figured it would eventually get relaunched with him back to doing mystical adventures some day.

    I was burned by Aaron's run. Looked great and had potential. Bachalo's art matched the subject. I loved how they displayed him seeing the invisible forces influencing daily normal lives.
    But then there was the absurdities, like the food thing, the 'price of magic', the de-powering and Strange's twenty-something personality.
    It was too much to justify spending money on it.

    Comics aren't cheap today and are more of a luxury item, so I've become more discriminating in what I spend money on.
    I'll keep an eye on the solicits for the first few issues of the new series, but I'm starting to think the Dr. Strange I liked will never return.
    And if that's the way things are then that's just the way things are. I just have to accept it.
    Let the new kids have their new Dr. Strange.
    I'll just read and re-read my back issues and stay forever stuck in the Bronze Age.

    I may poke my head out every now and then to see if the stars align for the classic version to be hip again, but I won't count on it.
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  6. #96
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    My thought whenever fans complain about whether a relaunch was "necessary" is "what's it to you?"

    It's a silly thing to get hung up on. If you were going to buy the next issue that followed sequentially in a series, what's the difference in picking up a new #1 instead?
    That's my exact point. It doesn't seem necessary .
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Stone View Post
    I probably missed it because I don't remember the series starting out that way.
    Strange being de-powered and then seeing him in the Buck Rogers helmet was enough for me to write off the book and totally ignore it after. I figured it would eventually get relaunched with him back to doing mystical adventures some day.

    I was burned by Aaron's run. Looked great and had potential. Bachalo's art matched the subject. I loved how they displayed him seeing the invisible forces influencing daily normal lives.
    But then there was the absurdities, like the food thing, the 'price of magic', the de-powering and Strange's twenty-something personality.
    It was too much to justify spending money on it.

    Comics aren't cheap today and are more of a luxury item, so I've become more discriminating in what I spend money on.
    I'll keep an eye on the solicits for the first few issues of the new series, but I'm starting to think the Dr. Strange I liked will never return.
    And if that's the way things are then that's just the way things are. I just have to accept it.
    Let the new kids have their new Dr. Strange.
    I'll just read and re-read my back issues and stay forever stuck in the Bronze Age.

    I may poke my head out every now and then to see if the stars align for the classic version to be hip again, but I won't count on it.
    To be honest I kind of bucked at the premise at first as well, but I think Waid did a good job of selling it and getting Strange back to relatively more classic status and characterization after Aaron.

  7. #97
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    My thought whenever fans complain about whether a relaunch was "necessary" is "what's it to you?"

    It's a silly thing to get hung up on. If you were going to buy the next issue that followed sequentially in a series, what's the difference in picking up a new #1 instead?
    It's a good thing you're not making my decisions for me, then. I'm very much into the numbering. I know it's of little importance to the vast majority of people out there, but that number is a factor for me. It might be something as simple as referring to a particular issue or a silly pride for a character who has had hundreds of issues but has only recently had a hundredth issue celebration and that was using a legacy numbering as opposed to an actual issue number.

    When I shop, buy, read, and store the book, your opinion on what I feel about the book is meaningless..

  8. #98
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    My thought whenever fans complain about whether a relaunch was "necessary" is "what's it to you?"
    I told you what it is to me. It's confusing. It makes it harder to sell / push a book. It puts off new readers, and myself, from reading the book.

    And importantly, it ends up damaging the sales on the character, after the artificial spike of yet another #1.


    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    It's a silly thing to get hung up on. If you were going to buy the next issue that followed sequentially in a series, what's the difference in picking up a new #1 instead?
    You are making the assumption that people will pick up the new #1. Even if they do, there are any number of reasons to complain. It makes organizing your comics or buying back issues, or even talking about your comics more difficult.

    Trashing the sale of a book, is not silly. Confusing and turning away readers is not silly.



    Quote Originally Posted by kilderkin View Post
    This tactic, which I see most at marvel, has really dented my enthusiasm for their new series and picking up their trades, if it's not totally clear with a quick look on the spine or cover, I just don't bother any more

    And I rarely go for new books coz I just anticipate a cancellation or relaunch a couple dozen issues in
    Exactly. Not to mention the prices.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beware Of Geek View Post
    Sales numbers support this. We can look at the Coates Black Panther run for an example.
    Yes. There's other examples, including Dr. Strange. The last #1 isn't anywhere close to Aaron's #1. And it's post #1 numbers are worse. I'm sure it will be worse for this relaunch.
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  9. #99
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    God, as much as I like that Waid is continuing, I agree with those saying that the relaunches are really annoying

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Stone View Post
    I probably missed it because I don't remember the series starting out that way.
    Strange being de-powered and then seeing him in the Buck Rogers helmet was enough for me to write off the book and totally ignore it after. I figured it would eventually get relaunched with him back to doing mystical adventures some day.

    I was burned by Aaron's run. Looked great and had potential. Bachalo's art matched the subject. I loved how they displayed him seeing the invisible forces influencing daily normal lives.
    But then there was the absurdities, like the food thing, the 'price of magic', the de-powering and Strange's twenty-something personality.
    It was too much to justify spending money on it.

    Comics aren't cheap today and are more of a luxury item, so I've become more discriminating in what I spend money on.
    I'll keep an eye on the solicits for the first few issues of the new series, but I'm starting to think the Dr. Strange I liked will never return.
    And if that's the way things are then that's just the way things are. I just have to accept it.
    Let the new kids have their new Dr. Strange.
    I'll just read and re-read my back issues and stay forever stuck in the Bronze Age.

    I may poke my head out every now and then to see if the stars align for the classic version to be hip again, but I won't count on it.
    I was pissed when he was depowered when the first arc started, but he basically recovered the next issue. Characterisation is pretty much in line with his classic version with a slightly more modern tone, and the galactus arc reminded me heavily of more classic stories
    Last edited by Rrobin; 09-15-2019 at 09:56 PM.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    That's my exact point. It doesn't seem necessary .
    Sure, it's often times an eye roller when a book relaunches. I get that.

    But is it ever any actual skin off of anyone's nose? No. So why complain? Aren't there real problems in the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    I'm very much into the numbering.
    I think that should be on many comic fan's headstones: "He Was Very Much Into Numbering."

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    When I shop, buy, read, and store the book, your opinion on what I feel about the book is meaningless..
    I should hope so. I don't even know you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    I told you what it is to me. It's confusing. It makes it harder to sell / push a book. It puts off new readers, and myself, from reading the book.
    I'm sure publishers have data that tells them otherwise. If they didn't see a proven benefit from it, they wouldn't keep doing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    You are making the assumption that people will pick up the new #1. Even if they do, there are any number of reasons to complain. It makes organizing your comics or buying back issues, or even talking about your comics more difficult.
    If it actually makes talking about comics more difficult for anyone, they have much bigger problems than relaunches.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    Trashing the sale of a book, is not silly. Confusing and turning away readers is not silly.
    It's silly to find this stuff confusing. In the age of the internet, it's all very easy to keep track of.

    If someone is in a comic shop and they have a question about where a new run is picking up from, they can look it up in seconds on their phone.

    Following different volumes in the correct order is only truly confusing if someone wants to pretend that it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    Yes. There's other examples, including Dr. Strange. The last #1 isn't anywhere close to Aaron's #1. And it's post #1 numbers are worse. I'm sure it will be worse for this relaunch.
    I'm sure the new #1 on Surgeon Supreme will do better than the final issue of the last Strange run, which is what Marvel would care about in this case.

  11. #101
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rrobin View Post
    God, as much as I like that Waid is continuing, I agree with those saying that the relaunches are really annoying


    I was pissed when he was depowered when the first arc started, but he basically recovered the next issue. Characterisation is pretty much in line with his classic version with a slightly more modern tone, and the galactus arc reminded me heavily of more classic stories
    Thanks. That gives me some hope and makes me want to give it a chance.
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  12. #102
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Stone View Post
    Thanks. That gives me some hope and makes me want to give it a chance.
    Waid has been pretty good. His take has been more cosmic and sci-fi than other writers havc done, but even though characters like Super-Skrull and Galactus were involved, they were Dr Strange stories with Strange acting like Strange. After all, Strange palled considerably with the Silver Surfer

    The last two issues were done-in-ones with a feel much like the earliest Strange Tales stories. I think Waid gets the character and wanted to expand his horizons. The "Surgeon Supreme" stories look like they're going to add to the personal life , but leave the magical stuff as is. Watch the wacky hijinks as Dr Steve balances surgery and sorcery. Seriously, the opportunity to delve into Stephen Strange's personality and psyche here are pretty obvious.

  13. #103
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Sure, it's often times an eye roller when a book relaunches. I get that.

    But is it ever any actual skin off of anyone's nose? No. So why complain? Aren't there real problems in the world?
    I mean, we're on a comic book forum, talking about comic books and how we feel about them and the creative decisions...seems like fair game.
    I'm sure the new #1 on Surgeon Supreme will do better than the final issue of the last Strange run, which is what Marvel would care about in this case.
    But the sales drop off after that new #1 might be steeper.

  14. #104
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Sure, it's often times an eye roller when a book relaunches. I get that.

    But is it ever any actual skin off of anyone's nose? No. So why complain? Aren't there real problems in the world?
    Yes, there's the problem of condescending people dismissing opinions they don't agree with by calling them silly, instead of engaging in a discussion of facts or experiences. There's the problem of people complaining about other people complaining (oh the irony). But there's not much I can do about that.

    And yes, as I said before, it is actual skin off people's nose, when they lose business. It's skin off my nose when I don't get the circulation I could have on graphic novels if only Marvel would make it less confusing to people who want to start reading comics. And it's skin off my nose when I get sent the wrong back issue because the freaking comic dealer was confused about which volume he'd listed. I'm not even going to get into the editorial excuses when their policies result in lower sales.


    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    I think that should be on many comic fan's headstones: "He Was Very Much Into Numbering."
    There are far worse things to have on a comic fan's headstone.



    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    I'm sure publishers have data that tells them otherwise. If they didn't see a proven benefit from it, they wouldn't keep doing it.
    Really? The publishers have data that tells them that _I_ do not find these relaunches and multiple volumes confusing? They have data that other people, that have said the same thing, are confused about their confusion? Please, provide this data. I'm very curious to see it and how they invaded my thoughts, as well as my privacy to gather this data. And how are YOU privy to this data? And to the information that publishers have?

    I didn't say there wasn't any benefit from it. I clearly said the opposite. There's an artificial spike for a new #1. That's why they do it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    If it actually makes talking about comics more difficult for anyone, they have much bigger problems than relaunches.
    Instead of simply referring to Avengers #9, I have to spend the time figuring out which volume of Avengers I'm talking about, and sometimes I have to go looking for the cover image, just to make it clear that I meant volume x, and not volume y. That's what I meant by more difficult. But by all means, continue with the condescension.




    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    It's silly to find this stuff confusing. In the age of the internet, it's all very easy to keep track of.

    If someone is in a comic shop and they have a question about where a new run is picking up from, they can look it up in seconds on their phone.

    Following different volumes in the correct order is only truly confusing if someone wants to pretend that it is.
    Have you EVER worked retail or with the public?

    I've been working with the public and with books since 1979, both in retail and in libraries. You are talking about people that have never read a comic before. They don't understand the first thing about them -- much less the morass of multiple volumes or god forbid, the reading order of an event. I've actually had someone (and no she wasn't an idiot, but quite well read) ask me to teach her HOW to read a comic book. She didn't understand how the panels worked and what order they should be read in.

    And customers / patrons do NOT want to figure all this out themselves, thank goodness, or I'd be out of a job. They want to walk into a store or library and have someone HAND them what they are looking for. I've had people walk out of the store, when I told them a book was on aisle 8, alphabetical by author and the author's name was Bendis, because I was the only one in store and I was helping someone check out and I couldn't put the book in their hand. This is not the exception. This is typical. And then there are the kids, which is another story. So please. Quit acting like only adult people, who've read comics all their life, and who own a smart phone to look all this mess up, should be the only ones allowed to read comics.

    Likewise, comic stores, and book stores, and libraries have tens to hundreds of thousands of items and usually run payroll short, so often there is only one or two employees in the building. Expecting that person to know EVERYTHING about EVERY item, the reading order, etc. or have the time to look it up, while manning the cash register / check out is simply unrealistic and uniformed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    I'm sure the new #1 on Surgeon Supreme will do better than the final issue of the last Strange run, which is what Marvel would care about in this case.
    I disagree. I think Marvel should be concerned about the long term health / earning income of these runs, instead of going for the quick buck, which ends up with diminishing returns and fewer readers. But yes, it is clear, that is all Marvel is concerned with.
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  15. #105
    Fantastic Member Riv86672's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Because that's not how it works.

    Numbers tend to drop, not build.

    I'd rather see a book get relaunched, showing that the publisher is still invested in the character, than just have them let a title limp to cancellation.

    If someone was already buying and enjoying Waid's Strange run, they'd be buying the next issue regardless of the number on the cover. So a relaunch shouldn't affect them in the least. If a new #1 should prompt some new readers to jump on as well, where's the harm?
    Agree to disagree, though your points are valid.

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