Jean Loring - worth reading pre-villainous material?

[Tzigone]

I've read only a smattering of Jean. I read the first few Atom stories. I seem to remember that she didn't want to get married until she'd advanced in her career. Of course, I know her marriage ended in an affair and divorce and then she went crazy/evil. But I really don't think that and early depiction as career-oriented are connected. Then again, with Carol Ferris...

I also read some Justice League of America issues where she appeared, culminating in the wedding of Ray and Jean. Liked the lead up showcasing the friendship between Atom and the Hawks.

And then her Eclipso appearance in Blue Beetle.

Is it worth reading any older issues with her or was she never developed as a character or never that interesting? Anyone got any issues to recommend?

[mikelmcknight72]

I've seen very little of her from before, but what I have seen makes her heel turn less surprising. I have seen nothing showing her as terribly sympathetic from before. She was like opposite of Silver Age Iris West, who was generally a supportive, good person. Jean always seemed selfish, demanding, and a shrew.

[Jim Kelly]

I think they started out with Jean Loring being a good example of a liberated woman. She put her career before marriage--choosing to first work on establishing herself as a lawyer before agreeing to marry Ray. If anyone was wrong in that relationship it was Ray, who came across as weak and needy whenever he would try to pressure her into marrying him when she wasn't ready. But for the most part, in the 1960s, they had one of those good, equal partnerships like all the Schwartz edited couples--Carter and Shiera, Ralph and Sue, Barry and Iris, Adam and Alanna, Hal and Carol er maybe not them once Carol got engaged to someone else.

It was at the end of the 1960s and into the 1970s when things got weird--with Jean being driven insane. After her tortured plot, she wed Ray, but in hindsight maybe the only reason she finally agreed to get hitched was because her spirit had been broken. And, in the end, their marriage fell apart pretty fast and immediately thereafter Ray was in a South American jungle dressed up like Conan the Barbarian and making love to a beautiful ant-woman. Jean was made out to be the heartless shrew for dumping Ray, but I think she made the right choice and a happy marriage was never in the cards for the couple.

After that, Jean should have been allowed to have a nice life and serve as a positive example of female empowerment. I mean, now it seems like she was beat up by the writers for being a career woman who chose her own needs over the needs of a man. I'd just as soon IDENTITY CRISIS had never happened and the writers had let Jean enjoy the happiness she deserved.

[Confuzzled]

After that, Jean should have been allowed to have a nice life and serve as a positive example of female empowerment. I mean, now it seems like she was beat up by the writers for being a career woman who chose her own needs over the needs of a man. I'd just as soon IDENTITY CRISIS had never happened and the writers had let Jean enjoy the happiness she deserved.

I have a feeling the idea of a "superhero love interest being the culprit" came first for Identity Crisis, and then they attempted to see who would make the best patsy, with Jean being chosen as the unfortunate one.

[mikelmcknight72]

In the very least, it would have been nice to have her and Ray appear prominently in JLA at least 6-12 issues before IC began. They could have built her up, given a few subtle hints that she might not be ok, but nothing too obvious. Her being insane and the killer might have felt more earned then. But most of my reading that included her was set during or after Identity Crisis.

[Tzigone]

After that, Jean should have been allowed to have a nice life and serve as a positive example of female empowerment. I mean, now it seems like she was beat up by the writers for being a career woman who chose her own needs over the needs of a man. I'd just as soon IDENTITY CRISIS had never happened and the writers had let Jean enjoy the happiness she deserved.

That's what I was thinking. Though that I adore Silver Age Ralph and Sue does contribute a lot, it really was more for Jean's sake (working off most wiki entries and summaries, I admit). Firstly and most importantly, I hate forgotten/inactive characters brought back to be either evil or killed off, so Identity Crisis had that against it, too. Then the retconning making so many other heroes look horrible for mental control (also dislike retcons that make heroes look worse). The knock on effect applying to other villains (who had redeemed somewhat) was annoying. And lastly, it was used to justify Bruce's abominable behavior.

I had been thinking, too, of the idea Jean and Ray as a relationship destined to fail. It's not something either really prioritized, in comparison to careers. And, of course, secret keeping until after engaged (an issue I have with other heroes, and Barry actually kept it until after married, and lied to Iris when he told her he'd tell her when they married because sleep-talking doesn't count). And this was in the bronze age, so treated more seriously, and she really was put in a terrible position. Agreed to marry without knowing fully what she was getting into, and then not given a lot of time to reflect on it after being told, IIRC. On the other hand, I think they could have been written to succeed, too. They seemed fine shortly before the affair to me. At least, it didn't seem foreshadowed or anything. And people can be devoted to careers and still have happy marriages.

Also forgot until now I'd read an issue with Hawks where Ray went mentally unstable. Not sure relevant, just thought of it.

I have a feeling the idea of a "superhero love interest being the culprit" came first for Identity Crisis, and then they attempted to see who would make the best patsy, with Jean being chosen as the unfortunate one.

Probably. Minor characters often end up either brought back to kill or be evil for shock value. Assassinated or character assassinated. Not fond of either.

[Flash Gordon]

Sword of the Atom is always worth a read.

[kcekada]

After that, Jean should have been allowed to have a nice life and serve as a positive example of female empowerment. I mean, now it seems like she was beat up by the writers for being a career woman who chose her own needs over the needs of a man. I'd just as soon IDENTITY CRISIS had never happened and the writers had let Jean enjoy the happiness she deserved.

I wouldn't mind Identity Crisis being purged from DC History. I know some readers who weren't familiar with the characters thought it was a good read -- but it was basically ban fan fiction. Characters and history was mangled to serve the writer's plot. i don't care that he is a successful fiction writer -- that series was bad.