How much does the "mainstream" version of a character really matter anymore?

[bat39]

This applies to both DC and Marvel, though with Marvel more aggresively pushing synergy between the various medias anyway, I guess its a little more pertinent to DC.

My question is basically - to what extent does the 'mainstream' 'in-continuity' version of a character, published in the 'mainline' book in the 'mainline' universe, really matter anymore?

I mean, obviously, they matter to the die-hard fans. And perhaps even to more casual ones. They keep these characters alive in the medium in which they were created, and continue to provide material for new adaptations.

But if you really think about the place that these characters hold in the collective pop-cultural conscioussness of the world, if you think about the most popular interpretations of these characters, and the versions of these characters subjected to the most discussion and debate - then it usually isn't the version of the character who shows up in the 'mainstream' books month after month.

I mean, what really has more relevance when it comes to shaping most people's perception of Superman? Brian Michael Bendis' current work on the title, or the Donner Superman movies and the DCEU? Or Smallville or Lois & Clark for that matter?

Consider Batman. Is Scott Snyder or Tom King's work really as influential to the character as Batman: TAS, the Nolanverse, the Adam West show or 'The Dark Knight Returns'? Or even the Arkham games for that matter.

Even if you look purely at the comics alone, you'll find that very often, the most iconic stories featuring a character may be years, if not decades old, and potentially no longer 'in continuity'. That applies even to the more recent stuff.

With Superman, you've got 'All Star Superman' and 'Kingdom Come'. With Batman you've got 'The Dark Knight Returns' and 'Year One'. More recent stories that have created a buzz for these characters include the Earth One OGN's, 'Batman White Knight', 'Superman Year One' etc.

It goes beyond the Big Two of course. Even after they were comprehensively rebooted, the popular vision of the Titans remained the 'New Teen Titans' run by Marv Wolfman - the run that inspired the cartoon and now, more recently, the TV show.

The fact that Scott Snyder's Justice League lineup so closely mirrors that of the DCAU cartoon, and that so many people regard John Stewart as THE Green Lantern, is also really telling.

One-shot stories set 'outside continuity' have always been popular and often create more buzz than anything mainstream. Earlier we had Elseworlds, then the Earth One OGN's. Now we have Black Label.

It really makes you wonder though - for all the quibbling we do over continuity and the current runs, a lot of that stuff ultimately doesn't matter much to the overall perception of the character and their brands, if at all...

[qwertyuiop1998]

I perception the mainstream characters is something like a foundation,

I mean, Yes, There is lots elsworlds or animated or movies versions of them and have more influence to some people than mainstream version, But all those versions stories and ideas still come from the mainstream: For instances: Superman come from krypton, He is a good guy, The death of Superman, Batman parents was killed so he has motive to become batman. Or like you said " the 'New Teen Titans' run by Marv Wolfman - the run that inspired the cartoon and now, more recently, the TV show." ETC

From my opinion, The elsewords or some separate from the mainstream stories have more potential due to more free play to the writers. But we also couldn't ignore that mainstream stories is they stories foundation

[Ascended]

My question is basically - to what extent does the 'mainstream' 'in-continuity' version of a character, published in the 'mainline' book in the 'mainline' universe, really matter anymore?

Well, I think DC is trying to make it matter a lot less these days with all of their self-contained imprints and OGN's, much of which bypasses the direct market completely. I'm personally a really big fan of the effort. I want a lot of different versions of these characters out there. I want versions for my six year old daughter, my thirteen (well, almost 13) year old son, for myself, etc. I want everyone to have a version of DC that's "for them." And I've never been that big a fan of the importance put on the main continuity in the first place. The best stuff is often stand-alone or Elseworlds, and the mainstream DCU usually is just tripping over its own feet trying to make sense of its own history, throwing in shock value gimmick changes to keep sales alive, or re-hashing stories we've already seen that were told better the first time.

I think the mainstream, direct market DCU is still vitally important to the company. Without that, and the LCS crowd, DC couldn't stay afloat. So the ongoings and monthlies are super important as far as revenue go; that's still the vast bulk of DC's sales. But I hope that DC is able to break out of that limited market and find real success in other formats and avenues. Especially for content aimed at younger kids. We need new blood in the fandom and that's not gonna happen if DC doesn't get them young.

Of course, the direct market mainstream DCU stuff is also important for keeping trademarks and whatnot active. And they serve as cheap storyboards for larger media adaptations. I think there's always going to be a purpose and an audience for mainstream DC, if for no other reason than to provide a endless supply of ideas for movie makers and game designers to borrow from.

It still matters. Just not as much as it did a few years ago. I'm not sure if it's ever going to *not* matter, honestly, but I think DC could get to a place where the mainstream DCU is just one of several viable, sustainable options.

And I think we'll all be better off if it does.

[Restingvoice]

Mainstream is something that's popular, accepted or absorbed into the general public for as wide as possible and as long as possible.

That means Donner's Superman or Man of Steel depending on taste, Burton or Nolan's Batman depending on the generation, Gal Gadot Wonder Woman, Grant Gustin Flash, Momoa Aquaman, Burt Ward's Robin or Teen Titans' Robin depending on the generation, CW Supergirl, Classic or Suicide Squad Harley Quinn depending on taste, Justice League Unlimited lineup, Young Justice Nightwing and Wally, CW Supergirl and Arrow.

I don't even consider BTAS to be mainstream anymore since while 90s kids and comic fans know it, the general public of today, kids today, don't recognize it anymore. Youtube Teens React did a BTAS soundtrack listening to a few months/years back and nobody recognized it.

So back to your question, in a cross between watcher and reader, what I often hear is this
Everybody who watches Young Justice wish comic Nightwing to be more like Young Justice Nightwing.
The Jason Todd in Arkham Knight, Arkham Knight comic, Injustice and Lobdell's RHATO are close enough that they're happy every time he shows up.
Fans of Justice League Unlimited are really happy Snyder's using their lineup
Justice League watchers want Wonder Woman and Batman to be together. They're overridden by classic Clois readers and SMWW shippers though. Everyone has a strong opinion about that.
Teen Titans watcher and Titans watcher are happy that Dick and Kori are together again and wish it happen in the comic and they also perk up every time Beast Boy and Raven are showing any chemistry sign.

Conclusion, each has its own group of fans, and mainstream only matters if that's their first entry to the DCU and they're starting to read the comic book too. The familiarity will attract them more than if it's unfamiliar.

My own example, I gravitate towards Greg Capullo because it reminds me of BTAS, while I love the first Arkham Asylum game because it reminds me of old SNES and SEGA Batman games, which are also BTAS adaptation.

On the other hand, it took me a really long time to warm up to Harley in comics and Arkham games because I hated Harley in BTAS. I only started liking Harley once I saw the more serious episodes and saw the complexity of the character and began supporting Harley/Ivy in comics after I saw their interaction in the cartoon and BTAS comic book adaptation.

Then once I got into the comic and fell in love, I can't enjoy Injustice since all three of my favorite heroes from the comic version, Superman, Wonder Woman, and Nightwing are turned evil. killed or discounted from the story mode, and in the case of Nightwing, it's all three.

[Tzigone]

Conclusion, each has its own group of fans, and mainstream only matters if that's their first entry to the DCU and they're starting to read the comic book too. The familiarity will attract them more than if it's unfamiliar.

True to a degree. YJ cartoon was my first exposure to a lot of the characters (watched B:TAS, Justice League, sixties Batman, 70s WW, but all but B:TAS were in reruns). After going to comics later, I really love Hawaii-Kon and hate what YJ did with Kon and Superman (making Superman the bad dad to Kon, especially when they have good!Dad Bruce, who I miss, but is less than reflective of contemporary comics). Hate YJ Nightwing, but like 80s and 90s Nightwing (YJ Nightwing is similar to later variations on the character, though). Bart and Jaime were likable enough (though I like season 1 better), but 90s Bart and 2006 Jaime are so very much more awesome.

Mind you, it wasn't exactly/directly YJ that got me to read DC comics (I'd read Marvel years before, but quit). It made me read fanfic (as I did some back when B:TAS was on). Stephanie Brown mentioned in fanfic and I looked her up and really wanted to know her better. I really liked that she worked in Gotham, but not for Batman, indeed, directly against what he wanted. The pregnancy storyline sounded interesting, too. So I started with her first appearance, then read the '90S Robin. Pregnancy story turned out to be kinda disappointing with too many after-school-special moments. But I liked the character. Knowing War Games was coming, I quit reading back issues. Then I read Nightwing, the Dixon run. Then Birds of Prey. My sister read Impulse, Superboy, and YJ, so recommended them to me, and I read them. Read assorted Wonder Woman, Batman, and Superman from Golden through Post Crisis eras, but no solid runs, really. Then I read the New Teen Titans from 1980 to about 1990. Tried original Teen Titans but it was quite silver age. I actually read until they started getting more bronze with the writing, but plots were kind of silver. Silver age Flash was fun, and Barry, that Barry, is my Flash. Read the '80s Blue Beetle, and some of the '80s and late preboot Booster. Got recommended the 2006 Blue Beetle, and the first 25 issues were fantastic. And so forth and so on. But I am definitely one who gets attached to certain versions, then doesn't like change.

[Vordan]

Are the ongoing comic book versions even mainstream? As has been pointed out, it’s the non-comic book media adaptions that are taken to be the “mainstream” versions of the characters. More people have seen Nolan’s Batman movies than ever read a comic book. The mainstream line is important but DC in particular has often wasted time trying to iron out its timeline for the more continuity obsessed fans which has never really worked out, whereas outside media is more focused on just telling stories.

[CaptCleghorn]

Characters, at least many successful ones, have a few qualities which define them and which shouldn't change if that character is successful.

Superman should be a nice guy, fighting for fairness, truth, justice, and that other stuff. Now we can see variations like the duplicate in Richard Pryor's Superman 3, but ultimately those qualities need to be adhered to.

My opinion anyway.

[Tzigone]

Are the ongoing comic book versions even mainstream? As has been pointed out, it’s the non-comic book media adaptions that are taken to be the “mainstream” versions of the characters. More people have seen Nolan’s Batman movies than ever read a comic book. The mainstream line is important but DC in particular has often wasted time trying to iron out its timeline for the more continuity obsessed fans which has never really worked out, whereas outside media is more focused on just telling stories.

True, but DC (I assume) needs people to actually buy the comics. Though I suppose the comics disappearing and movies and toys alone would bring in dollars, too. Not really sure how the money goes in regards to DC specifically there, though.

While I love continuity, I can see how it's not that important if they want the widest, casual-est market. There are things they could do to get that, but I don't know that the medium itself would work today. I mean, single-issue stories would be very easy assess (if they'd actually put comic books somewhere a casual could easily buy them). Buy a comic, read a story. Instead we have 6 or 12 or 24 issue events where one issue in isolation isn't an entertaining read (people don't know what's already going on) Do they want the kid market or teen or adult? How much money each has to spend matters, as does the type of story. With a kid market, they go old school, and rotate the audience every few years, so continuity doesn't matter that much. But we know that 50 years ago more ongoing stories with change started being popular and getting sales.

Also, of course, comics used to be cheap and disposable and widely available for a person to just pick up one. For most there was no way see back issues, so retcons didn't matter so much because so many readers (rolling audience of kids) hadn't read the old ones. Now, if someone wants to get into the comics, there's a huge number of backissues they actually have access to. And internet message boards for the minutiae obsessed fans to collaborate on. Much as I'd love for us to be the ones they court, I can see why it would be in their best interest to target other readers. I nearly 40, and comic books just weren't that around when I was a kid. I don't recall seeing them, anyway. My dad picked up a couple X-Men (that he saw in a gas station) for me (he knew I watched the cartoon) and it had order forms. And that's how I first read comics. Never actually gone into a store and picked one up myself. If not for that one, I likely would not have. Digital media gives more availability now, but potential buyers have to be exposed to the idea of buying them. And, if you are targeting a children or teens, they often can't spend their own money online (they way they could physical allowance money), and parents might not find them worth the cost.

I'm honestly not sure how possible it is to keep the old readers and get new ones at the same time. If it isn't possible, then they have to decide which group will bring more dollars (possibly more consistently) to the table. They absolutely will need new readers in time. But I'm not sure how that can be accomplished without the same rotating readership of yesteryear. And I'm not sure how anything geared to rotating readership can manage without easy/visible access to the issues or at least advertising the comics specifically.

[superduperman]

These days? Not much. At least not to me. I don't hardly read the mainstream books anymore. My view of Superman was shaped by the Donner movies and an obscure Saturday morning cartoon that aired when I was ten. And all other versions are judged based on how closely they hem to that version. Including the comics. I think most people have a similar story. Very few people can say their perception of their favorite character was shaped by the actual comics. How many people read a Batman comic and hear Kevin Conroy's voice in their head? I would argue the most realistic version of the DCU being made today is the YJ cartoon. Let that sink in. A cartoon that only airs on a streaming service that was originally aimed at children is a more realistic version than what's in the comics. I'm not surprised that we're having a hard time recruiting new readers. People want things that are simple. Comics today are anything but. Twenty years ago comics cost $1.50-$2.00. Today it's nearly $5.00 a pop. No one wants to pay that for something they have to keep getting every month and isn't even a complete story. Smallville was on the air for ten years. How many kids literally grew up with that as their Superman? Arrow's been on the air for over five years now. Flash for nearly that long. For olds like me, that's not much time but for a kid or young teen, that's a long time.

Which is easier? Paying $5.00 a month for an incomplete story? Or a TV show that airs every week for free? AND has a way more stable continuity than the comics? This isn't that hard. I honestly believe that there will be a serious discussion within the next 5-10 years among the higher ups about whether or not to phase out floppies altogether. They've gone from cheap entertainment for kids to what is, essentially, a specialty for hobbyists. For all the grief that Didio gets, I think one of the smart things he did was try to expand the line into OGNs. I think this is the only way the publishing end will survive. To give you an example: I thought about picking up the Lois book that comes out next month. It's by one of my favorite writers and the art looks amazing. But it also crosses over with a bunch of other books I'm not reading. So do I have to read all those other books to understand what's going on? Even TV crossovers don't require me to spend a bunch of money to follow what's going on. Recently, my LCS closed. Just not enough sales. Care to guess why that is? About the only ones left are chain stores that make their money on other things. The only Superman comic I read on a regular basis are the Wal-Mart books which have no connection to the mainstream universe. And it reminds me what a pain it is to have to deal with a monthly book to begin with.

[AdventureBliss]

It really makes you wonder though - for all the quibbling we do over continuity and the current runs, a lot of that stuff ultimately doesn't matter much to the overall perception of the character and their brands, if at all...

Alternative versions only work because you can compare and contrast them to the "mainstream" version though, so they are the most important one.

[The Darknight Detective]

To the average person, movies>television>comics. Always been that way, too (radio in place of television during the '40s).

For me? That would be comics>movies>television.

[Fromper]

I recently started reading comics again, after an extended absence. I go to a "comics and gaming" shop to play games twice per week, most weeks. I thought about checking out some of the new stuff. But I saw what a mess DC continuity is these days, and after about a month now of re-reading my old comics, I can still say that I haven't bought a new comic in over 15 years. I'm making a "want list" as I go, but it's all to fill in the gaps of my old collection, so everything on it is 20-40 years old.

For me, the "mainstream" version of the DCU is the post-Crisis version that ran from 1986 to the early 2000's, before they started mucking with continuity again. And yes, I know that there were plenty of retcons along the way, with the Zero Hour reboot of the Legion being the biggest. But I just don't care. I really think DC was putting out their best work in the late 80's and 90's, and it's just not worth the effort to even try and figure out where to start with the new stuff.

[Restingvoice]

To the average person, movies>television>comics. Always been that way, too (radio in place of television during the '40s).

For me? That would be comics>movies>television.

Where do you put games in that? I think games are more accessible than comics since they are usually stand-alone or mini-series.

[The Darknight Detective]

Where do you put games in that? I think games are more accessible than comics since they are usually stand-alone or mini-series.

For the masses, I probably would put them below movies, but above television and comics.

[skyvolt2000]

This applies to both DC and Marvel, though with Marvel more aggresively pushing synergy between the various medias anyway, I guess its a little more pertinent to DC.

My question is basically - to what extent does the 'mainstream' 'in-continuity' version of a character, published in the 'mainline' book in the 'mainline' universe, really matter anymore?

Mainstream tends to showcase the following-

A better written character (see Cyborg)

Someone who is MIA in comics (Bumblebee)

Someone who is disliked in comics either by management (hi Wally West) or certain fandoms.

Then there is everyone else like Batman where it doesn't matter what version you get.

Marvel does it more than DC because for many that is only shot they have being used.

It's why you see Shuri the blood teen sister of Black Panther versus Shuri the STEP sister of Black Panther.