Catwoman as a woman of color and sex worker

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

Italian, almost to be sure, these days. Italian enough to make mafia princess claims.

I kind of prefer the idea that she's black in Year One just from a weird insular standpoint where like it fits as part of the Millerverse, not necessarily the greater DCU history that Year One supposedly fits into.

Well that ship has sailed too. Catwoman is white in All Star Batman and Robin.

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

So academic papers now get written on "how I got confused"?

That must lead to some corking stuff. "I'd been drinking steadily all week-end and couldn't be arsed to check up the facts. Anyway, I meet this guy at a party, and he told me...."

Good to know that not all the tax dollars get wasted.

Well, he said he was going to do one on Catwoman, anyway, haha.

[Mia]

Hello everyone! So, this is my first post here in the cbr community forums, and I had a question to propose...

For an upcoming paper that I am writing, I am looking at the response of the Catwoman fandom toward the idea of Selina Kyle as a black woman, but also a prostitute, and what the (mostly negative) responses to this notion say about American culture/society and its response to race and employment as a sex worker. It has been my experience amongst the inter webs that the majority of people prefer the white, classy, pearl wearing cat-lady to the woman with actual motivation to become a thief turned hero/villain tight line walker.


thoughts? opinions?

I suspect that the reaction would be negative because Selina in the comic book has always been a white (half Hispanic) woman. And in general most fans are not fond of cosmetic changes to major characters. There's an else worlds story which features an African American Selina as being a night club owner and 'mistress' to a variety of men.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:_Nine_Lives

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

I suspect that the reaction would be negative because Selina in the comic book has always been a white (half Hispanic) woman. And in general most fans are not fond of cosmetic changes to major characters. There's an else worlds story which features an African American Selina as being a night club owner and 'mistress' to a variety of men.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:_Nine_Lives

Half Hispanic? Not even mentioning that Hispanic doesn't mean non-white (I'm a white Hispanic myself), how can we be sure when we don't even know if the Falcones are her parents, which would make her completely Italian.

Kyle is a Gaelic surname from the UK, and Selina is a common name in all of Europe. With her being created in 1940, it would be logical to assume that she was originally a white American.

However, the black alternative versions are fun, even if none was much of a hit.

[Carabas]

Half Hispanic? Not even mentioning that Hispanic doesn't mean non-white (I'm a white Hispanic myself), how can we be sure when we don't even know if the Falcones are her parents, which would make her completely Italian.

There is no story in which the Falcones were her parents. There is one in which it is strongly hinted at that one of the Falcones was her biological father with the mother being someone who was not Mrs. Falcone.

[Sacred Knight]

Her being a prostitute always was and always will be a stupid idea. Would have no problem if she wasn't white though.

[Smart]

I remember reading an article on this website asking whether frank miller had wanted her to be black but I can't remember the outcome as it was a few years ago.

It's unlikely there will be a black catwoman after 2004s movie, I think dc want to avoid comparison to that. If you are looking at race changes in characters Wally west and Helena bertinelli are amongst those in the new 52 as well as the ultimate universes nick fury. There's also examples in changes in sexual identity you may want to look into aka Alan Scott which caused quite a few articles when it was established.

[RobinFan4880]

I do not think Selina Kyle works especially well as a POC. I think a Catwoman could easily work as a black/hispanic/asian/etc. kind of character.

Catwoman as a prostitute? Sure. It had worked and probably will work in the future.

I remember reading an article on this website asking whether frank miller had wanted her to be black but I can't remember the outcome as it was a few years ago.

It's unlikely there will be a black catwoman after 2004s movie, I think dc want to avoid comparison to that. If you are looking at race changes in characters Wally west and Helena bertinelli are amongst those in the new 52 as well as the ultimate universes nick fury. There's also examples in changes in sexual identity you may want to look into aka Alan Scott which caused quite a few articles when it was established.

Helena is still fairly ambiguous. She could just be a swarthy Italian with curly hair.

[nepenthes]

I definitely saw her as being darker skinned the first time I read Year One, never realised it was even up for discussion until I discovered message boards, and didn't think too thought much about it otherwise. I suppose I took it for granted that she was a black woman early on in my exposure to her, in a similarly brief and inexplicable fashion.

That said I agree the colouring is so ambiguous you can legitimately see it either way, and until someone unearths this interview a few have mentioned, we've got little to indicate what Miller truly meant.

Unless you want to factor in his screenplay for Aronofsky's Year One film, in which it's outright stated.

The prostitute angle I'm personally a huge fan of, but that's likely owing more to Darwyn Cook's expansion of the themes and the relevance of that part of Selena's background than anything Miller himself was alluding to. Over and above that, Selina's Big Score is just the coolest Catwoman story ever told. But you still have to give credit to Miller for opening up that entire darker vein in just one short scene - a silhouette a window and a roundhouse kick to a pimp, and that's all, nothing more is ever stated - yet such such brutally straightforward and potent addition. One that marked the beginning of the evolution to the character as we now know now her, and one that no one else of the time would've risked.

[Carabas]

That said I agree the colouring is so ambiguous you can legitimately see it either way, and until someone unearths this interview a few have mentioned, we've got little to indicate what Miller truly meant.

Well, there is Selina's other appearance in the Millerverse, in The Dark Knight Rises.

The prostitute angle I'm personally a huge fan of, but that's likely owing more to Darwyn Cook's expansion of the themes and the relevance of that part of Selena's background than anything Miller himself was alluding to.

Ed Brubaker, surely? IIRC Cooke only wrote her in (the absolutely recommended) OGN Selina's Big Score, which maybe mentioned but didn't really deal with that part of her life.

[exile001]

I definitely saw her as being darker skinned the first time I read Year One, never realised it was even up for discussion until I discovered message boards, and didn't think too thought much about it otherwise. I suppose I took it for granted that she was a black woman early on in my exposure to her, in a similarly brief and inexplicable fashion.

That said I agree the colouring is so ambiguous you can legitimately see it either way, and until someone unearths this interview a few have mentioned, we've got little to indicate what Miller truly meant.

This.

Funny enough, as I came to Catwoman comics eventually via Batman: TAS and Batman Returns, I was more confused that she wasn't blonde.

I wasn't a big fan of the prostitute angle, not massively against it either, but I definitely liked that she was from that part of town. Brubaker did a great job in re-establishing that part of her past.

[Mr. Mastermind]

The prostitute angle really isn't that big of a deal, but it did feel like Miller just wanted to be "grittier" and darker in an otherwise good book. It doesn't really damage the character in any way, nor is it out of character.

Catwoman's race doesn't interfere with her personality either. She was black in the 60's and the world still moved on just fine.

On a side note, does anyone else think the "Person of Colour" phase sounds incredibly lame? It sounds like something only politicians would ever say. Not sure what was wrong with "black/Asian/Hispanic etc...".

[RobinFan4880]

On a side note, does anyone else think the "Person of Colour" phase sounds incredibly lame? It sounds like something only politicians would ever say. Not sure what was wrong with "black/Asian/Hispanic etc...".

You answered your own question. People pf Color is vastly easier (and more inclusive) than saying Black/Asian/Hispanic/etc.

[Mr. Mastermind]

You answered your own question. People pf Color is vastly easier (and more inclusive) than saying Black/Asian/Hispanic/etc.

Or you could just say people who aren't white, or racial minorities (depending on the country you live in, of course).

[LoneNecromancer]

To be fair I imagine it's supposed to be a nicer way of saying "not white". I don't really care for it myself, but I've never seen anyone really use it other than on the internet, so it's not like people are calling me that in real life.