Is DC in trouble

[Restingvoice]

It's hard to say why kids prefer manga over comics. Maybe it's simply portability and price.

Actually, it's really easy. Aside from portability, variation, and availability you mentioned, manga doesn't require you to read other books for a crossover or give the impression that you need to read other books.

There are long runners, but not to the hundreds of issues, where you have to ask first, do I need to read them all and is there's a jumping on point, so even if there's no jumping on point they can catch up pretty quick.

Connected to all of that, there are no continuity issues since each story's done by 1 writer.

Then for the short runners, you'll get actual character progression, actual character deaths, there are stakes, and they matter. They don't make me look at news of character deaths and say "eh. again? boring"

Sometimes there are retcons, but they're not spread out on different books, so there's no sudden surprise about the return of some other character that happened in a different book that made you go "wait I thought he died"

In short, manga is a lot less bothersome than superhero comics and when it comes for entertainment, people are gonna gravitate to the easier ones

As for colors, a lot of people do prefer anime to manga, so yeah, people do prefer colors. Often they pick up the manga because the anime isn't finished because they have to catch up with the manga and they can't wait.

[Crazy Diamond]

Actually, it's really easy. Aside from portability, variation, and availability you mentioned, manga doesn't require you to read other books for a crossover or give the impression that you need to read other books.

There are long runners, but not to the hundreds of issues, where you have to ask first, do I need to read them all and is there's a jumping on point, so even if there's no jumping on point they can catch up pretty quick.

Connected to all of that, there are no continuity issues since each story's done by 1 writer.

Then for the short runners, you'll get actual character progression, actual character deaths, there are stakes, and they matter. They don't make me look at news of character deaths and say "eh. again? boring"

Sometimes there are retcons, but they're not spread out on different books, so there's no sudden surprise about the return of some other character that happened in a different book that made you go "wait I thought he died"

In short, manga is a lot less bothersome than superhero comics and when it comes for entertainment, people are gonna gravitate to the easier ones

As for colors, a lot of people do prefer anime to manga, so yeah, people do prefer colors. Often they pick up the manga because the anime isn't finished because they have to catch up with the manga and they can't wait.

Another factor - Japan wasn't affected by an organization like the Comics Code Authority to my knowledge. There were moral panics but nothing that straight up led to say only publishing comics like Dragon Ball at the expense of everything else. So manga is still read by all types of people and as a result it covers many different kinds of stories. With what DC and Marvel think comics are, anything outside of superheroes is at best a curiosity written by the British/Scottish/Irish and at worst a waste of time, ink, and paper. So what happens if you're not so into superheroes? You have options but you're not going to find them at DC and Marvel.

And it's not just Japan either. Look at the French and Belgian comics as well.

[josai21]

I think, that in order for DC to stay alive in terms of comics (animation and movies will still be around), they will need to switch to the finite storytelling of other genres like manga. Batman/Superman should have a definitive beginning, middle, and end. Then you have a new series pick up with the next generation. And so on.

I don't buy comics anymore because there is zero progression that matters.

[cranger]

I think, that in order for DC to stay alive in terms of comics (animation and movies will still be around), they will need to switch to the finite storytelling of other genres like manga. Batman/Superman should have a definitive beginning, middle, and end. Then you have a new series pick up with the next generation. And so on.

I don't buy comics anymore because there is zero progression that matters.

Truth is people don't want that, not with the characters that have been around forever. And that is not the problem. For those of us who have been there and done that, there are other comics to buy. There are new characters we can read for a while, there are out of continuity stories.

You are 100% right that about one thing, we need to just stop reading the same characters we have been reading, maybe that will give DC (and Marvel) the message that they need to sell them to a newer younger audience.

One of the biggest flaws in criticizing comics is failing to realize just how many comics there are to choose from. Tired of Batman? Don't read Batman. Tired of DC? Don't read DC. The problem is not DC, it is us.

Batman, Wonder Woman, Superman, were all around for well over half a century before "not having an ending" became an issue.

[ConnorHawke]

Regarding the issue about finite versus infinite story, I think DC and similar periodicals do need to make the adjustment.
If you take a look at the series being published, with the exception of the perennials - which have been rebooted for cash bumps - everything else is cyclical anyway. Sure, they can sell Wonder Woman, Batman, Superman, Green Lantern and Flash until the cows come home, but everything else needs bumps and reboots to maintain profitability.

As for the TPB, we've seen that the constant rebooting to volume ones isn't having the desired sales effect either. It's confusing to go to an aisle and see three or four volume ones for the same character.

In my opinion, DC ought to start publishing as (for example) Batman 2020 #1-12 (or whatever issue it gets to), then 2021 #1-12. A total legacy issue number can still be printed on the cover for the enthusiasts, but the storytelling needs to be contained to the year, at least any major planned arc. There's a reason Knightfall and No Man's Land were so popular.

The trades should do something similar. Justice League 1984 volumes 1 and 2 can be published before or after 1997, just make sure it reprints any relevant issues and doesn't irk the fanbase by skipping storylines. As long as there is unity in the line and trade dress, it would be easy to understand for newcomers, and for the single market they have a new jumping on point every year.


Edit: For the unrelated minis: they can just be in an ongoing "DC Comics" title, and reprinted as such or, say, Martian Manhunter 2019. Who knows?

[Flash Gordon]

I agree.
DC has been largely targeting a shrinking audience, while they've been ignoring a larger audience that's growing.

And I believe 'kids aren't interested in comics' is a myth circulated by 30+ year old superhero comics fans afraid of what will happen if younger readers come into their 'yard'.
They've fought so hard for comics to 'grow up' with them that any sign of appealing to younger readers is a sign comics are 'regressing'.
On the bright side, they have nothing to fear, because kids aren't interested in those types of comics.

But DC has something to fear... because if kids aren't interested in those types of comics, they won't have a future once those 30+ year olds start falling off. Unless they start doing something now.

100%, yeah.

Comics are for everyone. This whole "kids don't like comics" is a fallacy. Comics can be made for any age group, it's the beauty of the art form. It's a big beautiful canvas in which all kinds of stories can be told for all kinds of audiences.

I could be really excited about KILLER GROOVE #2 which could sell next to SUPER SONS, or whatever. Something for everyone. If DC can learn those audiences and how to target them, they're golden.

[Flash Gordon]

I think, that in order for DC to stay alive in terms of comics (animation and movies will still be around), they will need to switch to the finite storytelling of other genres like manga. Batman/Superman should have a definitive beginning, middle, and end. Then you have a new series pick up with the next generation. And so on.

I don't buy comics anymore because there is zero progression that matters.

Nobody really wants that. That's another spin on the whole "these characters should grow up with me", when they shouldn't. Batman belongs to everybody.

[married guy]

I agree.
DC has been largely targeting a shrinking audience, while they've been ignoring a larger audience that's growing.

And I believe 'kids aren't interested in comics' is a myth circulated by 30+ year old superhero comics fans afraid of what will happen if younger readers come into their 'yard'.
They've fought so hard for comics to 'grow up' with them that any sign of appealing to younger readers is a sign comics are 'regressing'.
On the bright side, they have nothing to fear, because kids aren't interested in those types of comics.

But DC has something to fear... because if kids aren't interested in those types of comics, they won't have a future once those 30+ year olds start falling off. Unless they start doing something now.

I think it's a 2 pronged matter. One, getting the books out there to appeal to kids and two, letting the parents KNOW the books are out there for them to buy.

I read I Hate Fairyland to my daughter and it's still one of her favourite stories.

[Vampire Savior]

I just wanted to chime in and say I did a bit more of my "market research", or whatever r you'd like to call it, and I talked to yet another girl who loves manga. I did not know she loves manga before today. What I discovered is that price point is likely not the issue of why kids love manga over comics. The conversation went something like this.

Me: You're wearing that bracelet again. (we had talked about it at a previous point in time). You must think it's as cool as I do.

Girl: Yeah. It is a Japanese culture thing, and I'm really into anime so I like it.

Me: What's your favorite anime?

Girl: My Hero Academia
(I hear this one a lot lately. From what I've seen of the show [which I admit is very little], I hate it, but that's me. With these kids, I pretend I like it, or I at least never say anything bad about it.)

Me: Do you read the manga, too? I was just talking to another girl who likes it, too, and she just got the first volume of the manga.

Girl: Yeah, I read it!

Me: Do you have a lot of the manga?

Girl: Well. No. There is a site I go to to read it.

Me: Heh. You mean you go to one of those sites with all the ads where you can read manga for free?

Girl (giggling and looking bashful): They're expensive.

Me; What other manga do you like?

Girl: JoJo's Bizarre Adventure.

Me: You read JoJo's Bizarre Adventure!? That's a surprise. Have you ever read Stardust Crusaders?

Girl: No, but I want to. I read the latest one.

...and it went on from there.

From talking to this girl, I'm led to believe that price isn't really the issue here. This specific girl will bypass that by reading the content for free on the internet. She simply likes the content. She does not read American comics. The girl was an 8th grader and she will be going into the 9th grade. I talk to kids of varying ages.

My little "studies" here certainly reveal to me that kids read comics. I talk to them all the time. They just do not read DC Comics. It's not about money. It's probably about content.

[Rrobin]

I just wanted to chime in and say I did a bit more of my "market research", or whatever r you'd like to call it, and I talked to yet another girl who loves manga. I did not know she loves manga before today. What I discovered is that price point is likely not the issue of why kids love manga over comics. The conversation went something like this.

Me: You're wearing that bracelet again. (we had talked about it at a previous point in time). You must think it's as cool as I do.

Girl: Yeah. It is a Japanese culture thing, and I'm really into anime so I like it.

Me: What's your favorite anime?

Girl: My Hero Academia
(I hear this one a lot lately. From what I've seen of the show [which I admit is very little], I hate it, but that's me. With these kids, I pretend I like it, or I at least never say anything bad about it.)

Me: Do you read the manga, too? I was just talking to another girl who likes it, too, and she just got the first volume of the manga.

Girl: Yeah, I read it!

Me: Do you have a lot of the manga?

Girl: Well. No. There is a site I go to to read it.

Me: Heh. You mean you go to one of those sites with all the ads where you can read manga for free?

Girl (giggling and looking bashful): They're expensive.

Me; What other manga do you like?

Girl: JoJo's Bizarre Adventure.

Me: You read JoJo's Bizarre Adventure!? That's a surprise. Have you ever read Stardust Crusaders?

Girl: No, but I want to. I read the latest one.

...and it went on from there.

From talking to this girl, I'm led to believe that price isn't really the issue here. This specific girl will bypass that by reading the content for free on the internet. She simply likes the content. She does not read American comics. The girl was an 8th grader and she will be going into the 9th grade. I talk to kids of varying ages.

My little "studies" here certainly reveal to me that kids read comics. I talk to them all the time. They just do not read DC Comics. It's not about money. It's probably about content.

What I find is many people are hesitant to start reading big 2 because of continuity. But when you point them to creator-owned books they don't know they exist, so I suppose it's also a marketing thing?

[cranger]

My little "studies" here certainly reveal to me that kids read comics. I talk to them all the time. They just do not read DC Comics. It's not about money. It's probably about content.

Oh, lots of people "read" DC Comics too. We are purely talking about people who pay for them, with the argument that (some) manga titles can sell way more than any Big 2 title. Of course, what is not talked about is that like comics distributed through Diamond, there is a huge drop-off in numbers from the top manga to everything else (based on tracked sales in book stores.)

[Vampire Savior]

Oh, lots of people "read" DC Comics too. We are purely talking about people who pay for them, with the argument that (some) manga titles can sell way more than any Big 2 title. Of course, what is not talked about is that like comics distributed through Diamond, there is a huge drop-off in numbers from the top manga to everything else (based on tracked sales in book stores.)

What interests me more is what kids are actually interested in. From my experience, kids are generally not interested in DC Comics. Even if a kid pirates a manga, it shows interest, and you can probably sell them a manga. If a kid won't even read a DC comic for free, you almost certainly won't be able to sell them one, because they aren't interested in them.

[ERON]

It's been my experience that kids want to read superhero comics, and will read them if they are available and affordable. It's just that superhero comics aren't as available or affordable as they once were, so kids read other things that are available and affordable like manga and YA books.

People talk about how well Marvel books like Squirrel Girl and Moon Girl do at Scholastic book fairs, but I've been to those book fairs, and the kids are settling for Squirrel Girl and Moon Girl because those are the only comics there. If there were Spider-Man, Batman, or Avengers comics there, those would sell, too. And I mean the actual comics, not a "young readers friendly" version. Kids can tell the difference.

And continuity isn't as much of a stumbling block to kids as we tend to think. I've used random issues of Justice League and Teen Titans from the '80s and '90s as a classroom tool to teach students how to outline a plot, and they really get into them, even if they're part 3 of an 8 part saga. I think a lot of older comics readers really sell kids short when these conversations come up.

[Vampire Savior]

It's important not to underestimate kids, and I think companies like DC often do, because they don't really know them well. When I was, like, 7, I liked Vampire Hunter D. If there was a kid friendly, cleaned up, watered down Vampire Hunter D that someone was trying to market toward me, I wouldn't like it. I always thought the comics based off of shows like Justice League were stupid, because they seemed like dumb watered down versions of the cartoon, and I could tell their stories never mattered. But that is what someone tried to market to kids. Kids can deal with continuity and multiple part stories. When Power Rangers was doing straight monster of the week stuff, it was a big success, but when the five part "Green With Evil" story happened that introduced the Green Ranger, it was epic, the show was doing stuff it had never done before, the Power Rangers were losing some times, kids ate it up, and the success exploded way more even. When you look at it, it's easy to see why:



Then, of course, there was the success of the X-Men show, which almost always began with Cyclops saying, "Previously on X-Men".

[skyvolt2000]

It's been my experience that kids want to read superhero comics, and will read them if they are available and affordable. It's just that superhero comics aren't as available or affordable as they once were, so kids read other things that are available and affordable like manga and YA books.

People talk about how well Marvel books like Squirrel Girl and Moon Girl do at Scholastic book fairs, but I've been to those book fairs, and the kids are settling for Squirrel Girl and Moon Girl because those are the only comics there. If there were Spider-Man, Batman, or Avengers comics there, those would sell, too. And I mean the actual comics, not a "young readers friendly" version. Kids can tell the difference.

No they wouldn't. Most will still BYPASS those guys for Moon Girl and others.

I have told this story before-Around 2003 I was asked by the library to help her get more trades into the library. I saw that Scholastic catalog of trades we could order.

In terms of diversity the ONLY person color book as the lead were She Hulk & Hulk.
As a member of a team-MAYBE X-Men (I would say the 80s era)
Female lead-WW, Batgirl (Babs), She Hulk & Supergirl
Batman, Superman, 60s era Justice League & MAYBE Flash (Barry era not Wally era)
Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, Hulk & Iron Man (before Rhodey), & Thor
Star Wars (Marvel & Dark Horse)

That was it and guess what all those books were doing not just at my school but others (as I learned later). Covered in dust and UNREAD.

The issue with kids is who they LIKE tends to be the very group ADULTS constantly take issue with. Like Wally West & Nightwing & Young Justice kids.
Kids don't want to READ about Batman & his friends. They don't want to read about young versions of them either. They want something different.

You want KIDS-you have to cater to them and that means making some adults MAD.

Amazon's Best seller Teen & Young Adult trades has ONE Dc book from 2019-Raven. Everyone else from DC is from runs 10 years ago. Batman is not there. Nor is WW, Superman, Flash, Teen Titans or Justice League. It's John's Green Lantern, Smith's Shazam, Loeb's Supergirl & New Frontier. Marvel is killing DC by offering a variety of books. Due to a new Spider-Man movie-all the spider folks trades are gain sales now.

To piggyback on what Cranger said-it's fans and I would add STORE OWNERS too that are the problem.

When DC & ESPECIALLY MARVEL try something different-who is the first to raise HELL?
We have seen creators harassed, threatened, DOXXED or even plotted against over books.
Then we got store owners who scream they don't want certain books in their stores or even made.
The same folks who have NO issue with a large pile of unsold Batman books but will cry murder over 1-3 issues of unsold Moon Girl books. That riles up a certain segment of fake fans.
Not to mention those who HATE buy just to make Youtube bashing videos.

Sooner than later you have to IGNORE these folks. Because that is entitlement that you are seeing.
Who cares if Black Lightning has a solo that fails? It's not about getting his to Black Lightning #200. It's about getting material out there while he has that show. He has 4 trades.

DC has to take some risk and if they have to be minis only-go for it.