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  1. #76
    Superfan Through The Ages BBally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daBronzeBomma View Post
    Let's look at Terra-Man.





    Three things spring to mind:

    1.The pre-Crisis version of Toby Manning is way goofier but looks more memorable and has the better weapons.

    2. The post-Crisis version of him is far more serious but also looks more generic and has the better motivation.

    3. Honestly can't remember if he ever showed up in New52 or Rebirth or since.

    If he hasn't, being him back but take the best of both worlds: Keep the eco- terrorist angle and merge with the advanced alien weaponry angle.

    Superman's own cowboy Weapons Master, who went green.

    A merged version (with a robotic steed) could still go places.
    You can actually make both characters work easily if you make the post crisis version a descendant of the original after he discovered his ancestor's notes about the alien technology he used to wield and its powers after original Terra-Man's "final" defeat against Superman that ended with him being stranded in the old West for good.
    No matter how many reboots, new origins, reinterpretations or suit redesigns. In the end, he will always be SUPERMAN

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  2. #77
    Legendary Member daBronzeBomma's Avatar
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    So, the redundancy problem with Superman's rogues ...

    I have a more controversial solution than further differentiating the overly similar villains.

    Instead of differentiating (which I think will ultimately lead to diminishing returns for both characters), I propose going in the opposite direction.

    Merge them.

    I'd rather Superman have a lean rogues gallery of about 13 well-developed reusable rogues than a bloated one of over 43 where more than half are forgotten or forgettable.

    Examples?

    Metallo and the Cyborg Superman.

    Cythonna and Lady Blaze.

    Faora and Ursa.

    The Quarmer and the Parasite.

    I'm sure there are more, but these came to mind first.

    You don't have to merge ALL the redundant pairs, but you do have to consider merging SOME of them.

  3. #78
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daBronzeBomma View Post
    So, the redundancy problem with Superman's rogues ...

    I have a more controversial solution than further differentiating the overly similar villains.

    Instead of differentiating (which I think will ultimately lead to diminishing returns for both characters), I propose going in the opposite direction.

    Merge them..
    I definitely think this is a viable approach for at least *some* of the redundancies. But the problem is that a lot of the overlap characters are still fairly prominent in the rogues gallery and mythos. I mean, Metallo hasn't done anything worth talking about in years, and merging him with Henshaw would make a lot of sense....but then you've "lost" a big name villain who readers know and recognize.

    I think I'd rather see writers try to carve out unique niches for the redundant villains so they're not as redundant anymore, rather than fuse them.....but a merger is definitely something that should be kept on the table as an option too.

    Quote Originally Posted by daBronzeBomma View Post
    Knew I should have gone first.

    Your stuff is thesis-level next to my stuff.
    I dunno about that man, I really liked your idea.

    I think we were just doing different things with the concept. In both of my versions I'm just creating a villain you can get a couple stories out of, and then they'd be finished. Even my "classic" take on Nuclear Man......once he kills his girlfriend and goes full-on psycho......when you hit that point you can do a few stories about him just being crazy and violent and evil but the whole character arc up to that point demands a resolution of some kind. It's a lot like Manchester Black; that guy *had* to die, and committing suicide after finally realizing that Superman was right was a perfect ending (then they rebooted and Black was alive again....but that's a new continuity so it doesnt count ). My takes on Nuke are along those lines; they're finite. What you did was create a antagonistic supporting character who could stick around long-term. In the same way that Lex Luthor is part of Clark's supporting cast as well as his biggest foe, you've created a Nuclear Man who could endure and be interesting beyond his role as a villain. It's sorta close to my "classic" take, since my clone idea would get a character arc, but you got much more mileage in your Nuclear Man than I do. And a villain who can endure and last is usually far superior to one designed to burn bright and quick.
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  4. #79
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daBronzeBomma View Post
    So, the redundancy problem with Superman's rogues ...

    I have a more controversial solution than further differentiating the overly similar villains.

    Instead of differentiating (which I think will ultimately lead to diminishing returns for both characters), I propose going in the opposite direction.

    Merge them.

    I'd rather Superman have a lean rogues gallery of about 13 well-developed reusable rogues than a bloated one of over 43 where more than half are forgotten or forgettable.

    Examples?

    Metallo and the Cyborg Superman.

    Cythonna and Lady Blaze.

    Faora and Ursa.

    The Quarmer and the Parasite.

    I'm sure there are more, but these came to mind first.

    You don't have to merge ALL the redundant pairs, but you do have to consider merging SOME of them.
    A lot of the ones you listed don’t even show up anymore, and I’m pretty sure Faora and Ursa are the same person just with a different name. Faora got changed into Ursa after Superman Reborn so I don’t think we need to worry about that. Blaze and Satanus have become Shazam villains last I checked but they haven’t shown up in years. The Quarmer? I have no clue who that is lol, when was their last appearance?

    Metallo and Cyborg Superman... hmmm. I can kinda see the reasoning, both of them are cyborgs. But I like how nowadays Metallo has a bigger beef with General Sam Lane and is more obsessed with winning Lois’ love rather than Henshaw’s burning hatred of Superman not being there for him. I do think Henshaw becoming Metallo would solve a lot of my own problems with him though.

  5. #80
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Faora and Ursa are historically different in the comics... or they were. Outside media has been interchanging names for a catch all female Kryptonian and the current lack of Faora probably still plays into it. Assuming the New 52 Faora became Ursa after Reborn.

    Fusing to me just cuts off too many routes. You can always keep the tradition as mentioned, just using whichever character and maybe even ignoring the other one. There's something unique to like about every character imo and as we've seen with the actual Superman, fusion tends to dull qualities.
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  6. #81
    Superfan Through The Ages BBally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daBronzeBomma View Post
    So, the redundancy problem with Superman's rogues ...

    I have a more controversial solution than further differentiating the overly similar villains.

    Instead of differentiating (which I think will ultimately lead to diminishing returns for both characters), I propose going in the opposite direction.

    Merge them.

    I'd rather Superman have a lean rogues gallery of about 13 well-developed reusable rogues than a bloated one of over 43 where more than half are forgotten or forgettable.

    Examples?

    Metallo and the Cyborg Superman.

    Cythonna and Lady Blaze.

    Faora and Ursa.

    The Quarmer and the Parasite.

    I'm sure there are more, but these came to mind first.

    You don't have to merge ALL the redundant pairs, but you do have to consider merging SOME of them.
    Not sure I'm for that solution especially not for Metallo and Cyborg Superman merging, both characters are known to readers that merging them would raise eyebrows.

    Like I said regarding the Terra-Man issue:

    You can actually make both characters work easily if you make the post crisis version a descendant of the original Terra-Man after he discovered his ancestor's notes about the alien technology he used to wield and its powers after original Terra-Man's "final" defeat against Superman that ended with him being stranded in the old West for good.
    No matter how many reboots, new origins, reinterpretations or suit redesigns. In the end, he will always be SUPERMAN

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  7. #82
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Yeah that's a pretty slick solution.

    I think for all the versions of villains we see, they can adopt a legacy concept. Like Lionel is a kingpin while Lex is a young scientist, Jensen and Freeman used Jones as a guinea pig (and well, there are also the Parasite twins), etc. I mean if they were ever going to make a tapestry of continuity and keep running ideas.
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  8. #83
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    As kind of overrated as he is, I feel like they could use The Grandmaster more often.

  9. #84
    Legendary Member daBronzeBomma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I definitely think this is a viable approach for at least *some* of the redundancies. But the problem is that a lot of the overlap characters are still fairly prominent in the rogues gallery and mythos. I mean, Metallo hasn't done anything worth talking about in years, and merging him with Henshaw would make a lot of sense....but then you've "lost" a big name villain who readers know and recognize.

    I think I'd rather see writers try to carve out unique niches for the redundant villains so they're not as redundant anymore, rather than fuse them.....but a merger is definitely something that should be kept on the table as an option too.

    To be clear, I was thinking about merging more as an option for non-in-continuity projects. Basically for new starts, like with a new movie series, or tv show, or animation or video games, etc. Merging characters within continuity (like, say, during a main canon storyline) is upping the degree of difficulty considerably.


    I dunno about that man, I really liked your idea.

    I think we were just doing different things with the concept. In both of my versions I'm just creating a villain you can get a couple stories out of, and then they'd be finished. Even my "classic" take on Nuclear Man......once he kills his girlfriend and goes full-on psycho......when you hit that point you can do a few stories about him just being crazy and violent and evil but the whole character arc up to that point demands a resolution of some kind. It's a lot like Manchester Black; that guy *had* to die, and committing suicide after finally realizing that Superman was right was a perfect ending (then they rebooted and Black was alive again....but that's a new continuity so it doesnt count ). My takes on Nuke are along those lines; they're finite. What you did was create a antagonistic supporting character who could stick around long-term. In the same way that Lex Luthor is part of Clark's supporting cast as well as his biggest foe, you've created a Nuclear Man who could endure and be interesting beyond his role as a villain. It's sorta close to my "classic" take, since my clone idea would get a character arc, but you got much more mileage in your Nuclear Man than I do. And a villain who can endure and last is usually far superior to one designed to burn bright and quick.

    Thank you so much! I really appreciate the compliment.

    Man, I hope we both just didn't doom Nuclear Man to not having any of these futures by actually posting our good ideas online ...

  10. #85
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daBronzeBomma View Post
    To be clear, I was thinking about merging more as an option for non-in-continuity projects. Basically for new starts, like with a new movie series, or tv show, or animation or video games, etc. Merging characters within continuity (like, say, during a main canon storyline) is upping the degree of difficulty considerably.

    Oh okay, I see what you mean.

    Yeah, that works fine. With a new adaptation it's open season on stuff like this.


    Thank you so much! I really appreciate the compliment.

    Man, I hope we both just didn't doom Nuclear Man to not having any of these futures by actually posting our good ideas online
    Nah, I really doubt it. First off......how many creators are even thinking about trying to make the Nuclear Man work in the comics? I think Bendis is the first person I've seen (at least in 15 years minimum) use him on any level....and that was just a single page.

    Beyond that, I dont *think* DC would be in any danger even *if* a writer ended up using something akin to our ideas. We'd have to prove that we came up with it first, and that the writer stole the concepts from us. So unless Bendis posts here with a "those are great ideas guys!" and then we see it unfold in the comics six months later.......

    And let's be real here; if that did happen? You and I would probably both be trying to use that to worm our way into the company, not sue them.
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  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by daBronzeBomma View Post
    So, the redundancy problem with Superman's rogues ...

    I have a more controversial solution than further differentiating the overly similar villains.

    Instead of differentiating (which I think will ultimately lead to diminishing returns for both characters), I propose going in the opposite direction.

    Merge them.

    I'd rather Superman have a lean rogues gallery of about 13 well-developed reusable rogues than a bloated one of over 43 where more than half are forgotten or forgettable.

    Examples?

    Metallo and the Cyborg Superman.

    Cythonna and Lady Blaze.

    Faora and Ursa.

    The Quarmer and the Parasite.

    I'm sure there are more, but these came to mind first.

    You don't have to merge ALL the redundant pairs, but you do have to consider merging SOME of them.
    No, just ditch (let them fade) forever, on the dated forgottens, such as many of the post-crisis creations. Understood, most of them had their one memorable story each, but that was about it, just one.

    However, of all full pairs mentioned, Metallo and Cyborg Superman are the most distinct on keeping them their own individual identities. However, if redundancy is a problem, as much history, actually a few memorable battles Cyborg Superman had, Metallo has more.
    Last edited by ngroove; 08-17-2019 at 09:38 AM.

  12. #87
    Legendary Member daBronzeBomma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Oh okay, I see what you mean.

    Yeah, that works fine. With a new adaptation it's open season on stuff like this.




    Nah, I really doubt it. First off......how many creators are even thinking about trying to make the Nuclear Man work in the comics? I think Bendis is the first person I've seen (at least in 15 years minimum) use him on any level....and that was just a single page.

    Beyond that, I dont *think* DC would be in any danger even *if* a writer ended up using something akin to our ideas. We'd have to prove that we came up with it first, and that the writer stole the concepts from us. So unless Bendis posts here with a "those are great ideas guys!" and then we see it unfold in the comics six months later.......

    And let's be real here; if that did happen? You and I would probably both be trying to use that to worm our way into the company, not sue them.

    Agreed 100% on the bolded. Good to know on the rest.

    So, in taking this idea of strengthening / spotlighting Superman's underrated rogues gallery, let's get a consensus: if we were to create Superman's own personal Legion of Doom consisting of purely Superverse villains (i.e. clear-cut villains created specifically and primarily for Superman, so no Darkseid, Lobo, nor Batman allowed),

    Who are the top 13 Superman-specific villains to this point?

    Not talking about untapped potential, talking about actual past and present usage, across all media and continuities.


    Me, counting down to build anticipation:

    13. Livewire
    12. Parasite
    11. Toyman
    10. Metallo
    09. Manchester Black
    08. Cyborg Superman
    07. Mongul
    06. Mxyzptlk
    05. Bizarro
    04. Doomsday
    03. Zod
    02. Brainiac
    01. Lex Luthor

    That's my roster, ranked. These are not necessarily my personal favorites (sociopathic loner Pre-COIE Faora would replace General Dru in that case), just the 13 villains made for Superman that have been used the most to my eye.

    What's yours?
    Last edited by daBronzeBomma; 08-18-2019 at 03:24 PM.

  13. #88
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    I.....might.....maybe.....replace Livewire with Maxima, though I see her as less a "villain" and more as someone who's goals don't always align with Clark's, and I think Intergang, despite doing business with Apokolips, is solidly a "Superman-centric" organization, so I'd put them in Toyman's place (who has history but has never been more than an annoyance outside of the creepy 90's version no one but me likes). But otherwise? Good list and I could definitely roll with this.

    I don't think we should totally rule out Xa-Du either.....the Phantom King has had several strong stories since 2011, and is an updated version of an older Kryptonian villain, so he *might* deserve a spot here too.
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  14. #89
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    In my case it's shaving 20 down to 13 (Intergang, Mongul, Prankster, Dominus, Toyman, Doomsday, Mxy, Henshaw, Parasite, Zod, Bizarro, Brainiac, Lex).

    Funny thing about Livewire: Lori Petty was everywhere in the mid 90s and made for a considerable guest star. Now it's like... what else do we remember about her?

    Sick Toyman was cool, but it had to be finite. You can't have the song and dance of breaking out and killing people without Superman looking bad. Which was the interesting point, seeing him deal with a monster and being like "how do we fix this?" He gets a bonus for taking it to Batman, but I guess several Toymen have so far anyway.
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  15. #90
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Sick Toyman was cool, but it had to be finite. You can't have the song and dance of breaking out and killing people without Superman looking bad. Which was the interesting point, seeing him deal with a monster and being like "how do we fix this?" He gets a bonus for taking it to Batman, but I guess several Toymen have so far anyway.
    What I liked about 90's Toyman was that he was such a twisted, sick f*ck. We really have nothing like that in the Super-rogues; even the monsters like Parasite are actual, literal monsters, while Toyman was just a bastard of a human being. I think they could have gotten a whole lot more mileage out of him than they did. His methods are so oddly low-end advanced Clark's senses are essentially worthless; like the guy uses such common components for his "toys" Clark can't trace them because they're just everywhere. It was a intriguing challenge, I thought.

    And the guy was truly mentally ill, so it's not like Clark can just toss him into the Zone or any of the other solutions Clark might entertain with his more....classically evil....foes. And I dont think him being a recurring threat would make Clark look bad. All the other villains do that, all the Arkham inmates do that, it's never been a problem. Toyman was one of those foes you didn't want to see every other storyline but I don't think him sticking around would've been any more damaging than Mongul or any other villain doing the same.

    I think Clark's rogues gallery needs a villain like this. I think it forces Clark to confront a different kind of evil, and it's something so incredibly simple and human.....I maintain that 90's Toyman was one of the best things the Super-books have done in forty years, and he was so far ahead of the curve it'll be another ten years before people realize what he had to offer.
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