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  1. #121
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    I think being afraid of silly is its own problem though. You take his first five villains with staying power, and the only one who's not arguably silly is Luthor.

    But when it comes to holding it against him, I think it just shows his versatility. There are street level characters with magical imp rogues, symbiotes, and other things that clash in ways we don't see with Superman. Thor isn't menaced by the likes of Prankster or Funky Flashman, but then he's limited to pretty much the same asgardians and general godlike beings. I mean for the sake of competition we have an Australian guy called Captain Boomerang who throws boomerangs, a guy named Scarecrow who dresses like a Scarecrow and scares people, and a guy with a freeze gun called Mister Freeze. Stay cooool and chiiiiilll.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Maybe they could just do a fusion dance. Is Satanus really a bigger character nowadays? I doubt most people would even know what his deal is.
    Was, up to the mid 2000s. I guess he still might be but of course that says so little. We've seen them shy away from the demonic sorcerer type, which is unfortunate in that League writers still do it and always make Superman look helpless with nothing to offset that portrayal.
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  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by daBronzeBomma View Post
    Now THIS would be poaching. And I completely disagree. Cythonna is a god of and from Krypton. Superman definitely and rightfully claims her as part of his rogues gallery.
    Eh, just being from Krypton is kind of a cop out. I'm not saying she has to be exclusively a Wonder Woman rogue, she should even square off with Superman more often, but it feels like she should have at least some issue with Wonder Woman.

  3. #123
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    I have a general dislike of the "rogues gallery" concept in general. It's a shared fictional universe, but the only hero this villain every fights is Superman? makes no sense.

    Yes it sometimes leads to dumb stories. Batman and Catwoman vs Cheetah was ridiculous. Batgirl somehow beating Livewire was equally dumb. That's an issue of the story being poorly planned though.

  4. #124
    Mighty Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    I think being afraid of silly is its own problem though. You take his first five villains with staying power, and the only one who's not arguably silly is Luthor.

    But when it comes to holding it against him, I think it just shows his versatility. There are street level characters with magical imp rogues, symbiotes, and other things that clash in ways we don't see with Superman. Thor isn't menaced by the likes of Prankster or Funky Flashman, but then he's limited to pretty much the same asgardians and general godlike beings. I mean for the sake of competition we have an Australian guy called Captain Boomerang who throws boomerangs, a guy named Scarecrow who dresses like a Scarecrow and scares people, and a guy with a freeze gun called Mister Freeze. Stay cooool and chiiiiilll.
    .
    Exactly, I fail to see how an scarecrow, a penguin, a lizard are so much cooler compared to Bizarro or Brainiac... Fans can be so biased.
    Last edited by stargazer01; 09-07-2019 at 11:38 AM.

  5. #125
    Mighty Member LifeIsILL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    I had an argument recently with someone who said Superman villains were kind of silly.. implying they weren't as good as other superheroes rogue galleries..

    It made me so angry because it's a big lie, I really fail to see HOW are Batman and Spiderman villains less silly than villains like Doomsday, Brainiac or Bizarro. Seriously, wtf, this is so unfair and untrue.
    If DC actually uses Supe's real rogues like they did back in the 80s they would totally overtake Batman and Spidey's rogues. I mean villains like Maxima, Ultra-Humanite, Rampage, Silver Banshee, they're underrated and had some great stories.

    I thought one of his most underrated villains is Emil Hamilton, when he turned evil it was kind of a shock, and great storytelling because Supes really trusted this guy.
    Last edited by LifeIsILL; 09-06-2019 at 10:31 PM.

  6. #126
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Rereading a lot of the 2000s Superbooks has me pleasantly surprised with how common it is to see SuperRogues pop up. Guys like Riot who haven’t shown up in years were constantly making cameos in this time period. It seems like the New 52 brought an end to that which is a mistake imo. Throwing away all of Superman’s Rogues so they could keep making new characters seems misguided, although only the Lobdell creations were totally lame imo.

  7. #127
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LifeIsILL View Post
    If DC actually uses Supe's real rogues like they did back in the 80s they would totally overtake Batman and Spidey's rogues. I mean villains like Maxima, Ultra-Humanite, Rampage, Silver Banshee, they're underrated and had some great stories.

    I thought one of his most underrated villains is Emil Hamilton, when he turned evil it was kind of a shock, and great storytelling because Supes really trusted this guy.
    Metallo is one of the best Superman rogues in terms of teamups with other villains. He's powerful, but not really as powerful as Superman.

  8. #128
    Legendary Member daBronzeBomma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRay View Post
    Eh, just being from Krypton is kind of a cop out. I'm not saying she has to be exclusively a Wonder Woman rogue, she should even square off with Superman more often, but it feels like she should have at least some issue with Wonder Woman.
    Why would she? She's the last god of Krypton. No connection at all to Earthbound pantheons like the Greco-Romans or the Norse. None to the New Gods. Cythonna is Rao's enemy. She wouldn't even glance at Diana.

    The only people she would remotely be interested are the living Kryptonians: Kal, Kara, Dru, Ursa, possibly Karen, Conner, Jon, Lor, and Krypto.

    Anyone else? Not worth her time.

    And it's a MUCH bigger cop-out to say that because someone's an evil god, Wonder Woman has to fight them. That's like saying because someone is an evil alien, Superman has to fight them. That's so limiting to BOTH characters.

    Also, if you follow Wonder Woman, then you already know a big complaint from her fanbase is the over-reliance on her rogues galleries being gods. More gods is not the answer there.

  9. #129
    Legendary Member daBronzeBomma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    I have a general dislike of the "rogues gallery" concept in general. It's a shared fictional universe, but the only hero this villain every fights is Superman? makes no sense.

    Yes it sometimes leads to dumb stories. Batman and Catwoman vs Cheetah was ridiculous. Batgirl somehow beating Livewire was equally dumb. That's an issue of the story being poorly planned though.

    Rogues Galleries for a specific franchise makes a lot more sense than a shared universe does.

    So, the other Justice Leaguers could clean up Gotham City in less than a weekend, but they don't dare enter because Batman told them to stay out of his turf? And in the meantime, Gotham goes from merely crime-ridden city down to infamous City of Living Nightmares under his watch, and that's OK by the other heroes (all of whom are considerably more powerful than Bruce)?

    Makes no sense without giant steaming piles of Plot-Induced Stupidity for everyone involved. And that's not "sometimes". That's just par for the course at both DC and Marvel.

    Rogues Galleries are great, just to reiterate.

  10. #130
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    I am just not one for the constant cycles. There have been times where they would go simultaneous or back to back on Superman and it made them seem a little weaker. And that's common with other heroes, the gauntlet. Reminds me of older action tv stuff like Batman 66 or Power Rangers where a fight would break out and the goons would form a big circle and bob in place before they ran up one by one to get knocked out.

    It's why I appreciate the specific and rare Luthor Brainiac team or the Luthor Mxy story arc that ran from Exile to Krimson.
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  11. #131
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daBronzeBomma View Post
    Rogues Galleries for a specific franchise makes a lot more sense than a shared universe does.
    BUT, DC does have them as characters in a shared universe though.
    So, the other Justice Leaguers could clean up Gotham City in less than a weekend, but they don't dare enter because Batman told them to stay out of his turf? And in the meantime, Gotham goes from merely crime-ridden city down to infamous City of Living Nightmares under his watch, and that's OK by the other heroes (all of whom are considerably more powerful than Bruce)?
    Well that actually happened. Did I like the idea? not really. Like you said, the idea doesn't make sense unless Batman is the only hero in the world. But it happened and was a giant steaming pile of PIS.
    Makes no sense without giant steaming piles of Plot-Induced Stupidity for everyone involved. And that's not "sometimes". That's just par for the course at both DC and Marvel.
    I find it to be a giant pile of PIS that crossovers aren't normal. I mean from an in-universe perspective it makes sense to have minor crossovers regularly.

    For example: Batgirl investigates a new gang trying to muscle into Gotham. She tracks them to an area outside town near Metropolis and runs into their leader... Devastation. Deva starts trying to smash her but Supergirl shows up to fight Deva.

    Editorial would be unlikely go for it for brand-identity reasons. But from a perspective of a consistent shared universe it makes sense. Why? Well, Deva basically has nothing to do. She's one of those characters who in-universe got left jobless and homeless(literally) when the most recent story with them was over. Also Gotham and Metropolis are canonically very close together. Also I like the idea that aliens like Kryptonians are immune to Deva's instinctive ability to know how to kill everything.
    Rogues Galleries are great, just to reiterate.
    Only if you treat the various comics as separate IPs. Which doesn't work when the Justice League has been a thing for longer than most individual heroes.

    I get the feeling this is one of those power tier things. IE: Superman comics have super-tier enemies, Batman doesn't.

    Justice League Unlimited had a few eps that actually dealt with that. Coincidently two had Stargirl. In one of them, STRIPE , and Stargirl start the ep by having a discussion about how annoying it is to have Superman save them from villains. Then General Eilers(Eiling?) shows up in his mutated form and challenges Superman to a fight.... who doesn't show up. So Stargirl and STRIPE have to stop him from wrecking stuff. They call for backup and the only guys available are Vigilante and Shining Knight. The episode actually ends with Eilers having a moment of thoughtful contemplation about how his motives were bad and leaving.... after kicking the crap out of them for 15 minutes or so. If this had been an MMO raid it'd have been a party wipe with the boss at 75% HP. It's one of the rare cases where they actually had the heroes LOSE. If I was to say it had a point, it's that it takes a lot more courage to be a guy who's a normal human fighting villains who ARE super.

    The other was a story where Stargirl had to save Supergirl from Metallo. They were in Skartaris and Supergirl was mostly powerless for most of the fight. (Because the people of Skartaris had somehow found a building sized hunk of Kryptonite.) The sub-plot was related to Stargirl feeling inferior and useless. Which ended when Stargirl ripped Metallo's heart out while he was fighting Supergirl.
    Last edited by marhawkman; 09-08-2019 at 08:08 PM.

  12. #132

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    who are the top five recurring post-Crisis villains? I have no idea besides, say, Doomsday.

  13. #133
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    From 1986 to 2003 you clearly have Hank Henshaw, Lex Luthor, Brainiac, and Doomsday... then maybe Intergang? It's sort of up for grabs after the top 4, but Intergang includes so many characters.

    Beyond that timespan there were all the forms of Zod. Dominus and Imperiex also had huge sagas post crisis if we're looking at appearances.
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  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypestyle View Post
    who are the top five recurring post-Crisis villains? I have no idea besides, say, Doomsday.
    1. Doomsday
    2. Cyborg Superman
    3. Lobo, I'll go with Lobo, based on Superman's sometimes battles with him, comics and cartoon.
    4. Silver Banshee
    5. I'd almost go Maxima, but she stopped being 100% adversarial after her first year.
    Last edited by ngroove; 09-08-2019 at 09:40 PM.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by daBronzeBomma View Post
    Why would she? She's the last god of Krypton. No connection at all to Earthbound pantheons like the Greco-Romans or the Norse. None to the New Gods.
    That is not what I mean and not the point I am going for. It's not about pantheons or even being a God. She would be a threat to more than just Superman, as many rogues are.
    Last edited by TheRay; 09-09-2019 at 07:46 PM.

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