Superman's rogues gallery appreciation

[Ascended]

Let's look at the evil / antagonist Kryptonians, usually in the Phantom Zone.

Is this a vast untapped treasure trove of villainy?

Or is this more the Ninja paradox, where 1 Ninja is high- unstoppable to the hero, but 100 ninjas are just fodder to the hero?

I think it's both. I think its a vast trove of villainy, but also a ninja paradox.

Like, we've seen several stories about the Phantom King where he ruins Clark's whole day by himself, yet when Clark was in the Zone recently, he dealt with all the inmates at once and lived to tell the tale.

I am definitely all about getting more mileage out of the Zone inmates, but it might be better to deal with them one (or two) at a time, instead of trying to involve everyone who ever showed up between the Silver Age and now.

[marhawkman]

I think it's both. I think its a vast trove of villainy, but also a ninja paradox.

Like, we've seen several stories about the Phantom King where he ruins Clark's whole day by himself, yet when Clark was in the Zone recently, he dealt with all the inmates at once and lived to tell the tale.

I am definitely all about getting more mileage out of the Zone inmates, but it might be better to deal with them one (or two) at a time, instead of trying to involve everyone who ever showed up between the Silver Age and now.

Yeah writers need to avoid the temptation to use ALL the evil Kryptonians at once. It becomes a problem only when there's multiples at once. But different Kryptonians have different goals and motives for Superman to deal with.

Why does every female villain that gets any name recognition, have to be an antihero? I don’t see any reason to make Livewire an antihero.

Well, looking at her specifically, what's her motive as a villain? Her original motive was to annoy Superman. No evil ideals, no sinister hidden motives, heck becoming a supervillain was in some continuities the first crime she ever committed. So the question is not "why have a villain become a hero/anti-hero?" Rather, "why is this character defined as a villain at all?"

[jetengine]

Itd be neat if a villain escaped the Phantom Zone only to have some kind of genetic defect where he cant actually turn sunlight into superpowers so has to use his advanced intellect yo create a anti superman plot.

[daBronzeBomma]

Ok, here is one that seems like a winner in the right hands:





The Galactic Golem.

Give my your best "elevator pitch" for this guy as a prominent member of the Super Rogues.

[Vordan]

Ok, here is one that seems like a winner in the right hands:





The Galactic Golem.

Give my your best "elevator pitch" for this guy as a prominent member of the Super Rogues.

Once I finish my Busiek reread I’ll let you know! Personally I’ve always figured he works better as a “Celestial” type enemy. You have no clue what he wants or why he does what he does but he’s obscenely powerful and Supes can’t beat him, he can just get him to move on.

[Ascended]

I think you could do two things with the Golem.

One, you treat him as a plot device; the story doesn't move around him but who is *controlling* him. Like the Destroyer from Thor comics, the Golem is a mindless engine of mass destruction with no free will of its own. You can get tons of stories out of this. For example: Almerac, Thanagar, and the Dominion race to get the key to controlling the Golem, threatening galactic war. Or a little boy finds the key and uses the Golem as his "best friend" and Clark has to get it away from the kid without endangering the town. Or Clark finds himself up against an impossibly strong foe (Darkseid, in his seat of power on Apokolips? Barbatos? Satanus and Blaze? Whoever!) and has to use the Golem himself to help win the fight.

Tons of options if you treat the Golem as a weapon to be used rather than a character unto itself.

My other idea is this: The Galactic Golem is Kismet's brother. Allied with the Lords of Order and the representation of inanimate objects; the Golem is the OG "immovable object." He ensures the fundamental building blocks of creation don't drift out of place. The Daxamite scientist Busiek credited for creating the Golem didn't invent anything, he just pulled the Golem into our reality. And the Golem has decided everything in reality moves too much, it all needs to stop and stand still. Like so many other entities aligned with the Lords of Order the Golem has deviated from its purpose, become gluttonous, and wants everything in creation to adhere to the Golem's own purpose and responsibilities.

Basically the Golem wants to freeze everything in place. Puts him in strong conflict with Superman, the Man of Action, who's always on the move. So we've got that old "immovable object/unstoppable force" thing going on, which is always a fun theme to explore. We've got ties to Super-centric figures like Kismet as well as DCU-wide concepts like the Lords of Order. And we've got a chance to explore and define the "Celestial" side of DC more, get into how these guys function in the cosmology and where they fit in relation to the Lords of Order/Chaos, the sphere of gods, etc etc.

Maybe if you really want to show how dangerous the Golem is, you bring back Imperiex; another Celestial cosmic manifestation, to team up with Clark and Kismet in taking him down.

[daBronzeBomma]

I think you could do two things with the Golem.

One, you treat him as a plot device; the story doesn't move around him but who is *controlling* him. Like the Destroyer from Thor comics, the Golem is a mindless engine of mass destruction with no free will of its own. You can get tons of stories out of this. For example: Almerac, Thanagar, and the Dominion race to get the key to controlling the Golem, threatening galactic war. Or a little boy finds the key and uses the Golem as his "best friend" and Clark has to get it away from the kid without endangering the town. Or Clark finds himself up against an impossibly strong foe (Darkseid, in his seat of power on Apokolips? Barbatos? Satanus and Blaze? Whoever!) and has to use the Golem himself to help win the fight.

Tons of options if you treat the Golem as a weapon to be used rather than a character unto itself.

My other idea is this: The Galactic Golem is Kismet's brother. Allied with the Lords of Order and the representation of inanimate objects; the Golem is the OG "immovable object." He ensures the fundamental building blocks of creation don't drift out of place. The Daxamite scientist Busiek credited for creating the Golem didn't invent anything, he just pulled the Golem into our reality. And the Golem has decided everything in reality moves too much, it all needs to stop and stand still. Like so many other entities aligned with the Lords of Order the Golem has deviated from its purpose, become gluttonous, and wants everything in creation to adhere to the Golem's own purpose and responsibilities.

Basically the Golem wants to freeze everything in place. Puts him in strong conflict with Superman, the Man of Action, who's always on the move. So we've got that old "immovable object/unstoppable force" thing going on, which is always a fun theme to explore. We've got ties to Super-centric figures like Kismet as well as DCU-wide concepts like the Lords of Order. And we've got a chance to explore and define the "Celestial" side of DC more, get into how these guys function in the cosmology and where they fit in relation to the Lords of Order/Chaos, the sphere of gods, etc etc.

Maybe if you really want to show how dangerous the Golem is, you bring back Imperiex; another Celestial cosmic manifestation, to team up with Clark and Kismet in taking him down.

I really, really like that 1st option. Mainly because I don't think Superman has anything else remotely like Thor's Destroyer in his rogues gallery. And also, as you eloquently pointed out, tons of non-contrived repeat usage available with this route.

The 2nd option isn't bad, it's just ... DC isn't nearly as good with cosmic entities as Marvel is. And Kismet isn't exactly in Eternity's league (though they did weirdly make out in one of those Marvel/DC crossovers).

Having never read a Galactic Golem story yet, did the character ever exhibit a distinct personality of its own? Or does GG fall more toward the Doomsday end of the emotional spectrum?

[Ascended]

I really, really like that 1st option. Mainly because I don't think Superman has anything else remotely like Thor's Destroyer in his rogues gallery. And also, as you eloquently pointed out, tons of non-contrived repeat usage available with this route.

I actually think Doomsday can work in this sort of role, especially the "virus" version from the New52. There's a mountain of things you can do there; Intergang tries to sell a vial of Doomsday virus on the black market, Clark crash lands on a planet where the virus ran rampant, the Planet staff gets infected, etc. And you can always just use Doomsday as a giant monster for Clark to fight of course.

If I ever worked for DC, this is the Doomsday I'd want to use. Infinitely superior to the previous version, with far more utility and longevity.

The 2nd option isn't bad, it's just ... DC isn't nearly as good with cosmic entities as Marvel is. And Kismet isn't exactly in Eternity's league (though they did weirdly make out in one of those Marvel/DC crossovers).

That's part of why I cooked this up, actually. DC's cosmic entities aren't as well defined as Marvel's and someone should change that.

Having never read a Galactic Golem story yet, did the character ever exhibit a distinct personality of its own? Or does GG fall more toward the Doomsday end of the emotional spectrum?

I haven't actually read one either. Well actually I think I did read at least an issue or two of what Busiek did but I don't remember the details at all. Wiki tells me that the pre-Crisis version, in his later appearances, did have some kind of intellect, but originally, and in Busiek's post-Crisis, it sounds like it was largely just a mindless monster fueled by animal instinct instead of reason. But like I said, I haven't really read much with the Golem.

[WonderScott]

Like a lot of other hero's rogues galleries, I'd really like to see more villains get a spotlight and build relationships together that aren't Lex Luthor, Brainiac, Doomsday, Zod, Cyborg Superman, and Darkseid. And shown as capable and resourceful on their own (in their own ways and villainy levels) in relation to the aforementioned foes.

Like a lot of heroes, Superman has a sadly small amount of female adversaries, so let's see some interesting stories and relationships between characters and Metropolis or the universe of planets between Volcana, Ursa, La Encantadora, Maxima, Obsession, Syrene, Lady Lunar, etc. I'm also down for making Faora and Zaora distinct characters with separate desires and goals.

I think there's a lot that could be explored with Atomic Skull, Metallo, Atlas, Bloodsport, Toyman, Prankster, Effron, Mister Z., etc.

Silver Banshee and Livewire and Lady Blaze and Lord Satanus and Luminus can also be used in some bigger ways than they usually have.

What would help is also developing Metropolis more than into a handful of locales and industries in the city. Create more breadth of what the city is about within the idea that it's the City of Tomorrow. Show us what that means and how some of these characters might operate within the concept.

[daBronzeBomma]

I actually think Doomsday can work in this sort of role, especially the "virus" version from the New52. There's a mountain of things you can do there; Intergang tries to sell a vial of Doomsday virus on the black market, Clark crash lands on a planet where the virus ran rampant, the Planet staff gets infected, etc. And you can always just use Doomsday as a giant monster for Clark to fight of course.

If I ever worked for DC, this is the Doomsday I'd want to use. Infinitely superior to the previous version, with far more utility and longevity.

You're hired!

So, about Doomsday ...




I gotta admit, outside of its viral incarnation, there is nothing particularly unique or memorable about Doomsday in general. Mindless monsters never did anything for me.

I would definitely give any version of Doomsday a pair of wings and the power of unlimited flight, tho.

[manwhohaseverything]

You're hired!

So, about Doomsday ...




I gotta admit, outside of its viral incarnation, there is nothing particularly unique or memorable about Doomsday in general. Mindless monsters never did anything for me.

I would definitely give any version of Doomsday a pair of wings and the power of unlimited flight, tho.

You could give doomsday backstory more depth. That thing was being made by killing it over and over again,sometimes even at infancy. Have doomsday remember all his deaths. How he was treated with brutality instead of kindness. I would, make scientist Bertron bad guy who played god. My doomsday would be a lot like guts from berserk who actually let his beast of darkness consume him.

[Vordan]

You could give doomsday backstory more depth. That thing was being made by killing it over and over again,sometimes even at infancy. Have doomsday remember all his deaths. How he was treated with brutality instead of kindness. I would, make scientist Bertron bad guy who played god. My doomsday would be a lot like guts from berserk who actually let his beast of darkness consume him.

They already did that. He does remember his multiple deaths, it’s why he hates Kryptonians so much. They’ve tried giving Doomsday more depth, even giving him intelligence, but it’s never worked. Doomsday “works” by being the equivalent of a super-predator for Superman. He’s raw power with no morals or even thoughts to hold him back. And that’s fine to a degree, not every villain needs depth after all, Batman’s Rogues all coming from broken homes make what was once heartbreaking into a torturous cliche.

The trick with Doomsday is to pair him with a thinker, a second villain behind him. Doomsday “can’t” kill Supes again just like Bane “can’t” break Batman again, so have someone else manipulating his actions to add tension. Jurgens had Mr. Oz, Brainiac, even Henshaw manipulating Doomsday. Johns had Sam Lane and Lex Luthor manipulating him during the lead up to New Krypton.

[manwhohaseverything]

They already did that. He does remember his multiple deaths, it’s why he hates Kryptonians so much. They’ve tried giving Doomsday more depth, even giving him intelligence, but it’s never worked. Doomsday “works” by being the equivalent of a super-predator for Superman. He’s raw power with no morals or even thoughts to hold him back. And that’s fine to a degree, not every villain needs depth after all, Batman’s Rogues all coming from broken homes make what was once heartbreaking into a torturous cliche.

The trick with Doomsday is to pair him with a thinker, a second villain behind him. Doomsday “can’t” kill Supes again just like Bane “can’t” break Batman again, so have someone else manipulating his actions to add tension. Jurgens had Mr. Oz, Brainiac, even Henshaw manipulating Doomsday. Johns had Sam Lane and Lex Luthor manipulating him during the lead up to New Krypton.

I know they did. But, it wasn't brutal enough to hit home the point of darvinism. And my guy will have all the faculties of sentience for while. Form relations and then gutted and betrayed.. Etc. Doomsday's life should be hell and horror of the worst kind with hope in it. so, that he can fall further into misery by betrayal.Essentially, something like this.


And become something like this

Replace the guy(guts) in the second image with superman. I want to give a horror take on doomsday like ewing did with the hulklore. But, hulk still has a morality at the end of the day . He could love. Doomsday on other hand will be like "The Beast from the land" in the book of revelation for superman.i would lean into the "hulk" archetype, instead of running away from it.
Since, we are on the subject. This is what a doomsday vs Superman fight can be

[Ascended]

You're hired!

Cool! I can start on Monday!

....hired for what, exactly?

I gotta admit, outside of its viral incarnation, there is nothing particularly unique or memorable about Doomsday in general. Mindless monsters never did anything for me.

I would definitely give any version of Doomsday a pair of wings and the power of unlimited flight, tho.

Well, the mindless monster does have its place in stories, especially endless ones like comics. But the problem is you don't have a lot of mileage there. Once you've read their story once or twice, there's not much left to do with them. And in Doomsday's case, his intro story is something he'll never surpass so he jumped the shark on his first outing. Hard to take him anywhere after that, yknow? But his visual is so iconic because of Death-Return, he's also an easy go-to for shock and awe, and a villain writers are going to want to bring in. For the rest of time, when Doomsday shows up it's going to be "oh sh*t that's the monster that killed Superman!" even though virtually nothing interesting has been done with him since.

You could give doomsday backstory more depth. That thing was being made by killing it over and over again,sometimes even at infancy. Have doomsday remember all his deaths. How he was treated with brutality instead of kindness. I would, make scientist Bertron bad guy who played god. My doomsday would be a lot like guts from berserk who actually let his beast of darkness consume him.

Never seen Berserk so I have no clue who that is. But I don't think adding depth of his backstory really helps a whole ton when it comes to the comic in your hands right now. Sure, you can explore the character's background, and that brings you up to three stories you can do (mindless monster, manipulated monster, monster's origin) but unless you plan on tying every new Doomsday story into his past it's just background details, y'know?

[daBronzeBomma]

Man, I forgot about this.

Anyone else a fan of old- school hip-hop/rap? Remember NWA's infamous debut "Straight Outta Compton"?

Well, a couple years ago, some fans made a really worthy parody called "Straight Outta Gotham".

(Warning: explicit lyrics)



Awesome. Can't show it here. Just check it out on YouTube. It's still there.

That's how far ahead Batman's rogues gallery is over everyone else's.

Can you imagine a "Straight Outta Krypton" rancid with the Superman rogues? Or some other song with Superman fans doing it this well?

Blerg, kryptonite ain't the only thing Green right now ... crazy envious.