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  1. #61
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    He's just a product of his (creatively and financially) poor environment. An example of what can happen to a villain with no comic foundation, as B&R Bane and technically even Mutepool from X-Men Origins had. He can easily be introduced again.

    It's harder for me to defend The Snake despite his place in history, or Piledriver considering the era and talent. Whirlicane just squeaks by due to writer persistence. Honestly, a Bum of the Month Club would make for a more historically extensive thread. Bum of the Day could run for a year.

    That said, here are my Rogue Rankings.

    Lex
    (favorite issue: DC Comics Presents Annual 1, favorite storyarc: Luthor's Hostile Takeover)

    Brainiac
    (favorite issue: Superman Special #2, favorite storyarc: Brainiac Trilogy)

    Bizarro
    (favorite issue: Action Comics vol. 2 #41, favorite storyarc: Boyzarro Re-Death)

    Zod
    (favorite issue: Action Comics #984, favorite storyarc: Supergirl Saga)

    Parasite
    (favorite issue: Adventures of Superman #481, favorite storyarc: Absolute Power Play)

    Hank Henshaw
    (favorite issue: Adventures of Superman #468, favorite storyarc: Trial of Superman)

    Mxy
    (favorite issue: Adventures of Superman #463, favorite storyarc: Krimson Krypronite)

    Doomsday
    (favorite issue: Superman vol. 2 #175, favorite storyarc: Hunter Prey)

    Toyman
    (favorite issue: Superman #306, favorite storyarc: Rough day at the Office)

    Prankster
    (favorite issue: Superman #22, favorite storyarc: Polyester year)

    Dominus
    (favorite issue: Action Comics #754, favorite storyarc: The Dominus Effect)

    Mongul
    (favorite issue: Superman Annual 11, favorite storyarc: Better Together)

    Intergang
    (favorite issue: Superman vol. 2 #35 (Edge), Action Comics #669, favorite storyarc: Intergang Goes Down)

    Conduit
    (favorite issue: Superman vol. 2 #94, favorite storyarc: Peer Pressure)

    Batman
    (favorite issue: Man of Steel #3, favorite storyarc: Madness!)

    Eradicator
    (favorite issue: Superman Man of Steel #114, favorite storyarc: Day of the Krypton Man)

    Darkseid
    (favorite issue: Superman vol. 2 #104, favorite storyarc: Legends)

    Rogol Zaar
    (favorite issue: The Man of Steel vol. 2 #3, favorite storyarc: The Man of Steel)

    Silver Banshee
    (favorite issue: Superman vol. 2 #23, favorite storyarc: Legends of the World's Finest)

    Ultra Humanite
    (favorite issue: Action Comics vol. 2 #38, favorite storyarc: Generations)

    So I think the highest profile villain to not make my top 20 is Metallo. Despite longevity, cartoon presence, and the incredibly memorable gimmick (terminator with Kryptonite heart comes back even if they make him over) I just don't think he's that great in the comics. He's almost always a henchman or opening act.
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  2. #62
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    As he’s been used traditionally yeah. Metallo reminds me of Shocker, a C-Lister despite the fact that he’s shown up repeatedly in outside media. I’d love to get my hands on Metallo, I’ve always felt like he has a ton of potential, just not explored by writers. He has had some good showings though, New Krypton and Last Son showed just how dangerous he can be against people without plot armor.

    Man I’m surprised to see Rogal on your list. Someone so new and you’ve already got him as one of your favorites? Interesting.

  3. #63
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    It's like credit score or something lol. For so many factors I think #1 is comic presence. They have to interact with Superman in his true medium. Even Livewire has been getting some weight on her in modern times. Longevity in the mythos, relevance to the main character, presence outside of comics, viability in the DCU and in spinoffs, etc. Prankster for example is from the earliest days but is lucky to appear in a cartoon or live action series, probably never gonna show up in a movie and that kinda hurts. Zaar is a very young character but the poster boy of this major Superfamily era. He can very easily branch out in time so character history isn't such a big disadvantage. But of course he can go down, like I'm sure Golden Age Metalo and Wolfingham looked like the characters to beat at their best.

    I get why Zaar seems boring and his look is bland, but I think he's something that's been missing since Mongul started taking Ls from every other character.

    Metallo imo was at his best as he appeared in TAS. Though I do dig the green and gold look. For the Kryptonite villain though, I think the Kid's kryptonite Midas touch is most impressive.
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  4. #64
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    It's like credit score or something lol. For so many factors I think #1 is comic presence. They have to interact with Superman in his true medium. Even Livewire has been getting some weight on her in modern times. Longevity in the mythos, relevance to the main character, presence outside of comics, viability in the DCU and in spinoffs, etc. Prankster for example is from the earliest days but is lucky to appear in a cartoon or live action series, probably never gonna show up in a movie and that kinda hurts. Zaar is a very young character but the poster boy of this major Superfamily era. He can very easily branch out in time so character history isn't such a big disadvantage. But of course he can go down, like I'm sure Golden Age Metalo and Wolfingham looked like the characters to beat at their best.

    I get why Zaar seems boring and his look is bland, but I think he's something that's been missing since Mongul started taking Ls from every other character.

    Metallo imo was at his best as he appeared in TAS. Though I do dig the green and gold look. For the Kryptonite villain though, I think the Kid's kryptonite Midas touch is most impressive.
    My favorite Metallo appearance is his JL Action look:
    75076C2D-353D-40FF-925C-D5BD6CEA66B7.jpeg
    Feels like a good compromise between his TAS appearance and his Frank redesign. I personally prefer less of a “Terminator” copy cat and more of a “evil Iron Man” look though. My ideal Metallo would look and have powers like this:
    DC25324E-7BC4-49BD-B02C-7399BFF7F65C.jpg
    The Crysis nanosuits but green and all the horrifying bioaugmentations those suits bring would be perfect for Metallo.

  5. #65
    Traveler of omniverses Thor-Ul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daBronzeBomma View Post
    32 years ago today ... HE appeared.

    Take a deep breath, because we've been swimming in the middle depths of the Villainous Superverse Ocean, but now now we're heading to the very bottom.

    Not even the regular ocean floor: we're at the bottom of the Marinias Trench, the Challenger Deep.

    Brace yourselves, for it is only at these lowest imaginable depths can you find ... HIM.










    Nuclear Man.

    The Worst Super-Villain Of All Time.

    By a mile.

    And yet, I believe he can still be totally redeemed in the hands of a creative writer.

    I have some ideas myself.
    Made him team up with Killer moth and you got the world's worstest.
    But you are right.

    he can be redeemed by a creative writer with the intention of redeem him.
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  6. #66
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Man, I'd have so much fun writing the Nuclear Man! I could totally make him an awesome villain!
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  7. #67
    Legendary Member daBronzeBomma's Avatar
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    Bullet points, please. I would love to compare notes on Nuclear Man.

    Moving from the absolute bottom of the ocean to top of its gleaming surface now ....

    It just occurred to me: since turning 80, Superman has gotten the best live-action representations of his 3 greatest enemies!







    Luthor. Brainiac. Zod.

    That's the Superverse Trinity of Evil.

    None of then have ever been better onscreen than their most recent live-action interpretations. (Why ALL of them have to be bald is still annoying, tho ... bald =/= evil).

    And depending on how KRYPTON uses an already visually spectacular Doomsday, he might turn the Trinity into a Rushmore.

  8. #68
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daBronzeBomma View Post
    Bullet points, please. I would love to compare notes on Nuclear Man.
    Well, I have two ideas. One basically creates a brand new character with damn few ties to the original. The other idea uses some of those original concepts but keeps it closer to the Nuclear Man we all so dearly love.

    This is my idea for the "classic" version.

    So, he's basically a Lex-created clone of Superman with solar powers (he can do things Clark can't, it's not the typical Kryptonian powerset). That's a pretty solid broadstroke origin, even if it's not at all original. But it's a decent place to start, if nothing else.

    So first off, as much as I think the red sun weakness gets used incorrectly and abused, I'd make the Nuclear Man manipulate red sun energy. It fits with his abilities and it turns a fight against him into a ticking clock. The longer Clark fights him, the weaker he gets. That adds a lot of drama to the conflict and offers a lot of interesting ways to take the battle, including forcing Clark to rely on his intellect rather than just punching harder. We also don't really have a good villain who's main "thing" is red sun radiation, which gives Nuke a little originality.

    Tying into this, I'd have the Nuclear Man created not in our sun, but in a sun eater that had just consumed a red star. Makes his origin "bigger" and even more fantastical.

    So this guy, he's the second clone Lex tries to create. The first is Bizarro (that post-Crisis story was soooo good!) and the third was Conner (the version that worked too good and was too much like Clark).

    Nuke is sort of a sleeper agent. He has a civilian name, a job, a girlfriend, a house, all that. No idea that he's a monster, or that he even has powers. But there's all this mental programming in his head, all these plans and objectives put there by Lex, spread out over the course of years (because Lex plans for the long game) and occasionally something will trigger; a keyword, an image, a date on the calendar....whatever. And Joe Average wakes up hours or days later with no memory of what he's done.

    This gives us some pathos and emotional resonance. Nuke doesnt *want* to be a villain.....and most of the time doesn't even realize that he is.

    As his story evolves, he'd start to notice that during his blackouts, the Nuclear Man shows up. Eventually, he puts the pieces together and realizes what he is. Cue the drama. He goes through your standard kind of narratives here, tries to kill Lex for doing this to him, tries to de-program himself, tries to live a normal life, eventually tries to access and control his powers without the trigger, tries to take control of his destiny, etc. We all know the kind of stuff that happens here.

    Over time he comes to hate Superman just as much as he hates Lex and despises himself for all the harm he unknowingly caused. It's not Superman's fault that Lex created a brainwashed evil clone, but Superman also doesn't (from Nuke's perspective) do everything he could to help. Nuke tries suicide by (Super) cop a few times, asks the League to help him, just bounces back and forth between lashing out and begging for aid (which makes everyone very wary of his mental state), stuff like that, and he begins to hate Superman for not letting him die just as much as he hates Lex for creating him. And when Nuke kills his girlfriend in a rage (not during a Lex controlled episode or a Super fight, just during an argument that went real bad because he's slowly going insane and becoming cruel) that's it. It's an act that Nuke can't blame on anyone but himself, but he's blamed Lex and Superman for so long that's what he does. And after that.....well the only thing he's got left is hate, and Lex and Superman are going to take that heat.
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  9. #69
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Second idea for the brand new "not like the movie at all" Nuclear Man.....

    Solaris the Tyrant Sun hires the Dominators to find a Tamaranean with royal blood. They find a guy who's the illegitimate descendant of a now-dead king and get a Mother Box for payment.

    Solaris takes this guy from Tamaran (who was a pretty normal dude, with no clue that his great/grandfather was a king) and experiments on him, using a sun eater that had consumed a red star to amplify and enhance the Tamaranean's natural biology and abilities. Dude becomes (basically) a humanoid sun eater able to generate a whole star's worth of red sun energy. Needless to say, he's sorta the perfect foe for Clark.

    The process turns him into a mindless killing machine who experiences nothing but pain and rage and has a unnatural hate for Supes (put there by Solaris of course), which Solaris aims at earth. There's a big fight, things go the way you'd expect with half the city in ruins and Clark nearly dead, but victorious. And the Tamaranean, utterly comatose, is put into STAR Labs' custody, where they try to undo what has been done to him. No one knows where this guy came from or who created him but it's clear this monster of nuclear/solar power isn't this way by choice.

    Months pass. Life moves on. Clark practically forgets about the guy (not really, but he's waiting to hear from STAR and is crazy busy with all kinds of trouble, more than usual). One day, STAR is finally managing to get a closer look at the Tamaraneans' DNA (he's invulnerable and a living star, it's hard to get a good look)......around the same time that Clark is discovering that all his recent troubles stem from Solaris' long-term plan.....and that the Tamaranean is actually a bomb triggered by microscopic intrusion. The Tamaranean explodes in a fantastic nuclear explosion of kryptonite energy (deeply buried by Solaris where even Clark wouldn't find it), wiping all of Metropolis off the map, killing millions and covering half the planet in a K-rad cloud. Clark survives simply by the virtue of not being anywhere near Metropolis, but the K-rads still leave him in a coma for weeks in the Fortress. Turns out Solaris' plan was to collapse the entire timestream, escaping his DC 1 Million future and taking refuge in the 5th dimension, where time's breaking won't affect him. Clark wakes up to red skies full of entropy, where time has started to crumble. Things and people from the past and future are all colliding, it's a total Crisis level threat that's spread the League beyond its breaking point and Clark missed almost all of it. With nothing but patches of space/time left and almost everyone he knows gone, Clark heads for the Fortress. Using a time sphere Clark manages to reach a date a few weeks in the future when Myx is supposed to arrive and Clark negotiates for passage to the 5th dimension to battle Solaris. They fight, and Clark pushes Solaris back into the real world just as time fully breaks. It sends them both to limbo, erasing Solaris completely from the timestream (and thus undoing all his actions, saving everyone), but Clark, caught in the backwash of Solaris' erasing, is hurled out of the orrery of worlds and into......something else that I'm not talking about here.
    Last edited by Ascended; 07-28-2019 at 12:28 PM.
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  10. #70
    Legendary Member daBronzeBomma's Avatar
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    Knew I should have gone first.

    Your stuff is thesis-level next to my stuff.

    Ok, here's my pitch for Nuclear Man.

    There is no "Nuclear Man".

    There is only "Newt Kellerman".

    Who happens to look just like Nuclear Man (always dressed in some combo of black and gold clothing), yet acts anything but.

    Backstory:

    Son of day-trader Marc and day-drinker Willow, Newt Kellerman was born and raised comfortably rich near Smallville.

    After getting expelled from his fancy local private school, Newt Kellerman enrolled in Smallville Public High School a year ahead of Clark Kent.

    Newt Kellerman quickly became captain of the football team AND basketball team, as starting quarterback and point guard, respectively. Only problem: over the years he was gradually becoming ridiculously better in the afternoon games, but getting more weirdly mediocre in the evening games.

    Because Newt Kellerman was born a mutant who could absorb and manipulate solar energy, but had minimal storage capacity. He basically has an allergic reaction to nighttime. So his professional sports dreams were dashed early on.

    Off the field/court, young Newt Kellerman was a ladies' man, ultra-popular with almost everyone ... except the bullies. Newt Kellerman took pleasure in beating or intimidating the crap out of those who tried to beat or intimidate others. He enjoyed the highs that came with being a hero. He "protected" Clark from Newt Kellerman's own teammates. He could be very patronizing, but the positive effects of his deeds outweighed the tone of his voice.

    Marc and Willow were like Bizarro versions of Jonathan and Martha. Newt Kellerman's parents and guided him regarding how to use his mutant powers to benefit himself without getting found out.

    After graduation, Newt Kellerman struggled to figure out a way to quietly monetize his abilities until he realized he could impart his personal solar energy into a special battery he developed, making it last 20x longer than the leading brand. With a loan from his proud parents, he started his own company and began mass-production "Newt Kellerman Batteries", which were a smash hit and eventually netted him billions of dollars.

    At this point, the adult Newt Kellerman has fashioned a public persona as a stylin', profilin', limousine-ridin', jet-flyin', kiss-stealin', wheelin' and dealin' son of a gun. He is the DCU's best carnival yard-barker, always stirring things up in the media.

    Behind the scenes, it's became an act: Newt Kellerman quietly marries Lacy Warfield, daughter and heir to tycoon David Warfield. Newt Kellerman and Lacy Warfield have a complicated but weirdly stable marriage, with both having multiple younger sidepieces of their own. They also have a teenage daughter together named Clove (who may have inherited some of Newt Kellerman's powers).

    Present day intro:

    After years of growing his business, Newt Kellerman finally moves his company's global HQ and family to Metropolis. He becomes the visible new owner of Metropolis' pro basketball team. He begins a public rivalry with one billionaire (a dismissive Lex Luthor) and fosters a beneficial partnership with another (an eager Morgan Edge). He schedules all meetings and public appearances in the daytime (after sunrise and before sunset), but rarely attends nighttime functions.

    Newt Kellerman is excited to reconnect with his old high school buddy Clark Kent. He gives Clark exclusive interviews, invites him to tag along to cover his company events, acting like they're best buds. Lacy Warfield (kept her maiden name) is a longtime admirer of Lois Lane, now trying to ingratiate herself with her. And young Clove is instantly smitten with Jon, but she is definitely a worse person than either of her parents.

    As much as Newt Kellerman loves Clark Kent, he hates Superman. He is publicly subdued about Superman, but privately he rages about the "idol worship" the alien cultivates. He has no desire to upend his life by fighting Superman as himself and thus revealing his secret powers.

    But, soon enough, Newt Kellerman finds a way ...

    Powers

    Newt Kellerman can absorb and manipulate any amount of solar energy in any number of ways. He is invincible in daylight but goes into a much weakened form at night. He is the DC version of an omega level mutant with no defined upper limit. Newt Kellerman possesses Kryptonian levels of super-strength, super-speed, true flight, invulnerability, as well as energy absorption, energy projection, and a ridiculous regeneration rate, among other powers. He can also "go nuclear" and become a semi-tangible glowing golden humanoid whose face and voice are not recognizable. This is the form he uses to publicly battle Superman, while maintaining his alter ego.

    Truthfully, I think that Newt Kellerman's non-super-villain life would be far more interesting than his super-villain one.

    But yeah, that's where I'd go with the character.
    Last edited by daBronzeBomma; 08-01-2019 at 09:41 PM.

  11. #71
    Legendary Member daBronzeBomma's Avatar
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    Regarding Metallo ... I think a big part of his inability to move past hench status is these fact that he's been made redundant by the OTHER cybernetic-organic villain in Kal's rogues gallery.

    Cyborg Superman. Why even bother with a low-aimer like John Corben when you already have a world-beater like Hank Henshaw with a very similar gimmick?

    Same deal with the Quarmer and the Parasite.

    And we can't forget why Mongul really fell off ... Darkseid, who wasn't even created for Superman.

    Redundancy is a real problem with the Super Rogues.

  12. #72
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    I'm still always unhappy with Parasite unidimensional portrayal.

    That guy could be a real pain in the ass for Superman, Clark Kent and Lois Lane, and the whole Metropolis, if his nickname wasn't just about his absorbing powers.

    He could be the ultimate "social parasite", the kind of guy who ingrains himself in someone's life and wreck it, with the victim never truly realizing that he's the cause of such downfall. Imagine him getting along with Perry White. How does Clark and Lois save their friend when he can't see that he's being destroyed by Parasite ?

    Heck, you can even go further and have Parasite be the kind of capitalist robbers who buy an already flourishing business and run it into the ground to have more money to buy a bigger business, etc. leaving hundreds, if not thousands of people destitute, despairing and angry.

    And when Superman comes in and try to stop him, surprise, he can leeches his powers !

    Of course, it wouldn't be possible to write too many different stories about him, but I think that a crescendo would be possible, over at least two or three arcs, until a final confrontation. And if need be, who better than Parasite to embed himself into the rehabilitation programs and pretend that he truly has changed, only to start again his whole deal, from the bottom up ?

  13. #73
    Astonishing Member Doctor Know's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daBronzeBomma View Post
    Regarding Metallo ... I think a big part of his inability to move past hench status is these fact that he's been made redundant by the OTHER cybernetic-organic villain in Kal's rogues gallery.

    Cyborg Superman. Why even bother with a low-aimer like John Corben when you already have a world-beater like Hank Henshaw with a very similar gimmick?

    Same deal with the Quarmer and the Parasite.

    And we can't forget why Mongul really fell off ... Darkseid, who wasn't even created for Superman.

    Redundancy is a real problem with the Super Rogues.
    Metallo can be rebranded by going his own way with a new direction of crimes. Being a machine, he relies on Erskine, Luthor, Sam Lane and others to repair him and keep him alive. If he was independent of them, he could make an effective hitman, terrorist or some other brand of criminal.

    There are enough Super "clone" characters in Kal's universe. Henshaw isn't as interesting outside of him looking like Supes. Making Zor-El the Cyborg Supes was even less interesting.

    Parasite should be like Morbius at Marvel. A vampire that drains people to sustain his own life. But on a power trip because of what he can do and take from people. Ride the vampire question, and come up with an ethical or moral dilemma for the proper way to deal with Rudy Jones.

    Mongul is good for a handful of stories. Supes being a gladiator on War World. Like John Carter of Mars. And Supes overthrowing Mongul and destroying or disabling War World. Mongul's revenge with the Black Mercy plants. Everything after that is redundant. Mongul desperately trying to get back on top.

    Darkseid has more potential and it's amusing how Supes has supplanted Orion as Darkeid's nemesis. Granted, the New Gods were launched on Supes' books back in the day. TPTB really need to work the New Gods and make them "happen". Supes with Orion and Scott would be easy to write.

    Agree with redundancy. Supes has so many world beaters, and they need to be divided out and given new approaches. Darkseid, Brainiac, Zod, Mongul, Cyborg Supes, Imperiex, Crime Syndicate, Anti-Monitor etc.

  14. #74
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    There are enough Super "clone" characters in Kal's universe. Henshaw isn't as interesting outside of him looking like Supes. Making Zor-El the Cyborg Supes was even less interesting.
    I can agree with that one. Looking back, I kinda think Henshaw could have just been done for after he served his purpose as a Superman fake-out. But I understand, of course, that companies don't want to get rid of any villains they think have potential. Coming up with good new ones can be difficult. But the Zor-El thing really doesn't work if you think much about it. Plus, I'm tired of the reworking-parents-into-villains thing.

  15. #75
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Well over redundancy I would say the greatest gift and curse would be the outstanding phases of most villains. Luthor being an obvious exception as pretty much all but his Superboy rivalry was packed into his earliest years. Even becoming his own son just made him like Alexei.

    But starting with #2, Brainiac is a butthole alien with cybernetics and mind to match might. But why is he like that, just greedy or ousted or what? Too many options. I personally like Telos as the Kandor villain since Brainiac is already so rich.

    Henshaw is like Cell from DBZ, but developed slightly before and bears his own grudge instead of inherited. He's also more fully indestructible as he lives as a ghost, forming Kryptonian flesh and material at will. I think Trial of Superman and the Superman vs Terminator story were pretty ideal demonstrations. Of course it's massively all overshadowed by the half Superman thing, at least until we get a revamped Composite people really care about.

    Metallo had struggled since before that though because a heart of kryptonite is not more than memorable. Anyone can wield kryptonite, why is it a better hook for him than like... Amanda McCoy? I don't shut up about the Kid but he's far smarter, more devious, and more powerful. Like Vordan brought up, Metallo needs a power and motivation worthy of that evil sentai thing he had going on.

    Starlin tried to wrest Darkseid back and I respect that. Once Superman starts beating him there's not much for him or Mongul.
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