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  1. #31
    Uncanny Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cap808 View Post
    Wasn't there a time when there were individuals known as, 'Avenger-In-Training'? I believe Rage, Firestar, and Justice, all fell into this category.

    Never forget that the Legion of Super Heroes actually held tryouts.
    Rage, no. He was booted for being underage and sent to the New Warriors. Firestar and Justice, on the other hand, left the NWs to join the Avengers. They were probationary at first.
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  2. #32
    Boisterously Confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cap808 View Post
    Wasn't there a time when there were individuals known as, 'Avenger-In-Training'? I believe Rage, Firestar, and Justice, all fell into this category.

    Never forget that the Legion of Super Heroes actually held tryouts.
    Rage, no. He was booted for being underage and sent to the New Warriors. Firestar and Justice, on the other hand, left the NWs to join the Avengers. They were probationary at first.
    Digifiend is correct about Rage, Firestar and Justice. However, Captain Marvel (now known [I think, it's hard to keep up] as Spectrum), and Starfox both entered as Avengers-In-Training. That, however, seemed to be a pretty short-lived idea. While my knowledge is not encyclopedic, I can't recall seeing the In-Training idea used in anybody else's run, unless...what was Silverclaw's standing during Busiek's run?

  3. #33
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    Personally, I don't think there should be a limit on who can and can't be made an Avenger. If we're being honest with ourself, the Avengers have a long history of recruiting nobodies and D-listers. The difference is that they used to stick with them for a while and use the opportunity to elevate the characters. After their time on the Avengers, they weren't nobodies anymore.

    The issue isn't that too many heroes are being made Avengers, the issue is that it's happening too quickly. And that's an issue not because of brand dilution, but because it defeats the point. Nobody cares about the times when Quake, Daredevil, Storm, Captain Universe, Sunfire, Noh-Varr, etc etc etc, were on the Avengers, and it isn't because they shouldn't have been on the team. It's because it didn't matter when they were, and they were shuffled out of the team before they could meaningfully impact it, or be impacted by their tenure.

    Hickman's tenure is a good example. He brought all these new characters onto the team, and I think they were cool additions. But at the end of the day, most of the stories were just about Captain America and the Illuminati, and everybody else was just an extra. For all people complained about Bendis' Avengers, at the very least in the pre-Heroic Age days, when he put somebody new on the team, he actually used them. Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Spider-Woman, they weren't just background characters. Their presence had an impact.

  4. #34
    The Celestial Dragon Tien Long's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreyga2000 View Post
    Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, and Quicksilver were all criminals when they first joined. Hulk was still very much considered a monster when he joined. Vision was created Ultron to destroy the team. Wonderman was used by Baron Zemo to attack the Avengers. Black Widow was a foreign spy.

    The Avengers has always been a group accepted anyone willing to fight for good. The message here is that anyone can become a hero.

    These people weren't made Avengers because they were the World's Greatest Heroes rather being an Avenger help make them the World's Greatest Heroes


    You got the cause and effect backwards
    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    Personally, I don't think there should be a limit on who can and can't be made an Avenger. If we're being honest with ourself, the Avengers have a long history of recruiting nobodies and D-listers. The difference is that they used to stick with them for a while and use the opportunity to elevate the characters. After their time on the Avengers, they weren't nobodies anymore.

    The issue isn't that too many heroes are being made Avengers, the issue is that it's happening too quickly. And that's an issue not because of brand dilution, but because it defeats the point. Nobody cares about the times when Quake, Daredevil, Storm, Captain Universe, Sunfire, Noh-Varr, etc etc etc, were on the Avengers, and it isn't because they shouldn't have been on the team. It's because it didn't matter when they were, and they were shuffled out of the team before they could meaningfully impact it, or be impacted by their tenure.

    Hickman's tenure is a good example. He brought all these new characters onto the team, and I think they were cool additions. But at the end of the day, most of the stories were just about Captain America and the Illuminati, and everybody else was just an extra. For all people complained about Bendis' Avengers, at the very least in the pre-Heroic Age days, when he put somebody new on the team, he actually used them. Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Spider-Woman, they weren't just background characters. Their presence had an impact.
    Interesting takes here. I like these ideas of openness with the team, anyone can be an Avenger. And by being part of this team, an individual like a Vision, Black Knight, or Hercules both elevate themselves as well as elevate the name of the Avengers. However, I think H-E-D hits the issue on the head, all of these new characters haven't had a chance to really impact the team of Avengers. Not just in some battle, mind you, but also in the personal moments. Yes, they may have helped out during Infinity this, that, and the other thing, but where were the moments when they were training together with Cap? Enjoying Jarvis' cooking? Sharing some mead with Thor? Helping Tony or Hank Pym in the lab? Enjoy a night of jazz with Wonder Man and Beast? Helping Carol through her alcoholism or enjoying a night of gypsy dance with Wanda?

    Taking a stand against Ultron is cool. One can make their mark as an Avenger that way. But to be really, REAL Avenger? I think the personal element has to be there.

    Additionally, everyone can be an Avenger, but where does that leave the other teams? How do they distinguish themselves? Champions, Defenders, New Warriors, do we just consider them to be offshoots of the Avengers?
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  5. #35
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    Personally, I don't think there should be a limit on who can and can't be made an Avenger. If we're being honest with ourself, the Avengers have a long history of recruiting nobodies and D-listers. The difference is that they used to stick with them for a while and use the opportunity to elevate the characters. After their time on the Avengers, they weren't nobodies anymore.

    The issue isn't that too many heroes are being made Avengers, the issue is that it's happening too quickly. And that's an issue not because of brand dilution, but because it defeats the point. Nobody cares about the times when Quake, Daredevil, Storm, Captain Universe, Sunfire, Noh-Varr, etc etc etc, were on the Avengers, and it isn't because they shouldn't have been on the team. It's because it didn't matter when they were, and they were shuffled out of the team before they could meaningfully impact it, or be impacted by their tenure.

    Hickman's tenure is a good example. He brought all these new characters onto the team, and I think they were cool additions. But at the end of the day, most of the stories were just about Captain America and the Illuminati, and everybody else was just an extra. For all people complained about Bendis' Avengers, at the very least in the pre-Heroic Age days, when he put somebody new on the team, he actually used them. Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Spider-Woman, they weren't just background characters. Their presence had an impact.
    I will give Hickman credit for Sunspot at least... when he was added to the team, he actually developed as a character. But yeah, Hickman added like a dozen other guys that didn't do a whole lot and were quickly forgotten about when Hickmans run ended. When someone like Ex Nihilo joins the Avengers, something weird is going on.

  6. #36
    Ultimate Member Holt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaijudo View Post
    But the League has had a lot of "questionable" members over the years as well. Triumph, Vibe, Mys-Tek, General Glory, Bloodwynd, Maxima, Element Woman...none of them are screaming "iconic."
    You even had the Justice League International, where part of the core premise was the team consisting of a bunch of obscure or lower tier heroes that were a far cry from the original Big 7 line-up.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    Digifiend is correct about Rage, Firestar and Justice. However, Captain Marvel (now known [I think, it's hard to keep up] as Spectrum), and Starfox both entered as Avengers-In-Training. That, however, seemed to be a pretty short-lived idea. While my knowledge is not encyclopedic, I can't recall seeing the In-Training idea used in anybody else's run, unless...what was Silverclaw's standing during Busiek's run?
    Avengers Academy sort of used the idea. The ending of the series had the characters "graduating" to being considered part of a training program, and it was mentioned that they'd essentially be interning and going on ride-alongs with the core teams until they were able to eventually become full fledged members. I don't think anyone else ever did anything with the idea, save for Al Ewing, who very briefly revisited it in the first issue of Mighty Avengers (where White Tiger was sent to Luke Cage's Heroes for Hire as part of her internship).

    Last edited by Holt; 06-25-2019 at 06:43 PM.

  7. #37
    Astonishing Member 9th.'s Avatar
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    This is what happens when other team books don't sell.
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  8. #38
    Extraordinary Member Gaastra's Avatar
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    The issue isn't that too many heroes are being made Avengers, the issue is that it's happening too quickly. And that's an issue not because of brand dilution, but because it defeats the point. Nobody cares about the times when Quake, Daredevil, Storm, Captain Universe, Sunfire, Noh-Varr, etc etc etc, were on the Avengers, and it isn't because they shouldn't have been on the team. It's because it didn't matter when they were, and they were shuffled out of the team before they could meaningfully impact it, or be impacted by their tenure.

    Hickman's tenure is a good example. He brought all these new characters onto the team, and I think they were cool additions. But at the end of the day, most of the stories were just about Captain America and the Illuminati, and everybody else was just an extra. For all people complained about Bendis' Avengers, at the very least in the pre-Heroic Age days, when he put somebody new on the team, he actually used them. Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Spider-Woman, they weren't just background characters. Their presence had an impact.
    I liked the avengers captain universe. With that said this is pretty much what I think is wrong. They shoved to many members in at once without giving them time on the team to breathe and grow. I don't mind new members but marvel needs to slow down with them. Other then some reserve or honory members (like stingray and the female yellowjacket) most had time to be on the team and do things as a avenger. We had some runs with only one or two new members and that's it. Marvel has tons of avengers right now. Instead of bringing in a new member use lionheart, us agent, sandman, 3-d man, mantis, echo, smasher, darkhawk or any of the past avengers.

    And yes when I was a kid it felt like joining the avengers was hitting the big time and was a big deal. It really does not feel like that anymore when you had 12 teams out at once. X-Men is the same.

  9. #39
    Ultimate Member Holt's Avatar
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    It basically comes with the territory of a team book like this. It's why new characters have a hard time catching on, I think. You look at someone like Claremont, who got to introduce a bunch of new character to the X-Men over a decade, and thus didn't have to worry about someone like Rogue or Kitty Pryde getting dropped as soon as a new writer took over and didn't want to use them. I reread the the entire Busiek arc in trade recently, and was really struck by how despite his run being regarded as one of the all-time greats, none of the new Avengers he added to the team stuck around or even rejoined after he left. Hell, I still don't know whatever happened to Silverclaw.

  10. #40
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    I like to think of The Avengers as both a team and ideal to strive towards.

    So anybody who stands up and does what right can be an Avenger for a moment in time but those who stick around and develop relationships with people on the team become Avengers. I honestly don’t know if any of that makes sense to anybody here.

  11. #41
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post
    At its core, the Avengers is an emergency militia. It's not a coincidence that the Big Three are composed of a soldier, a warrior-prince, and a high-tech knight. Like a real-world militia, they make a public display of it being an honor, but fundamentally it's about grabbing whoever is available and throwing them at the invasion. It's not a family of explorers, or a racial political activist group, it's a militia assembled because Kang is invading, or Ultron is invading, or Thanos is invading. I thought the whole scene where Iron Man dubs Spider-Man in the movies was played perfectly: Stark does the motions of honoring someone, but it's obvious from his tone and body-language that in his heart he's throwing together a team because something needs to be done RIGHT NOW. There's no real "honor" in all of this, it's just, people are about to die, we gotta stop it, who's available? That's it. That's all.
    We haven’t seen the original concept of the New Avengers as we got in Breakout. I’d like to see Daredevil and Sentry join Cap, Spidey, Wolvy, Iron Man, and Spiderwoman. We got close in New Avengers #16-20, but no Daredevil. Daredevil was that replacement for Black Widow, where Murdoch detected everything going on in the dark, and how to get out of situations with prisons full of super villains, unlike Spidey, who had his arm broken. Really, Bendis postponed Sentry being ready to be active for Avengering till issue 10, and Daredevil turned down anymore Avengers work after the solitary Breakout incident. This was supposed to be the premier super hero team, after Avengers Disassembled, and Bendis never actually showed them together after the Raft breakout. It was Daredevil who detected the imposter in Infinity Gauntlet, because of the different heartbeat. Everybody can be fooled by some villain, but it’s Daredevil that can’t be fooled.
    Last edited by jackolover; 06-25-2019 at 09:17 PM.

  12. #42
    Niffleheim
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    What's wrong with every hero or heroine becoming an Avenger? To be honest, the only time I shell out my money to read an Avenger book is when it includes characters who weren't originally Avengers. Thank god it's not an exclusive membership kind of team.

  13. #43
    Mighty Member kevlon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9th. View Post
    This is what happens when other team books don't sell.
    I think this is a good point. It can boast individual popularity.

    Also a rotating roster keeps things interesting I guess.

  14. #44
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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    eh superheroes be superheroes.

    If the book sells
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  15. #45
    Astonishing Member chamber-music's Avatar
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    The Avengers started out as a superhero club with a charter and rotating chairman position.

    Back in the old comics Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver actually had to past tests, background checks, ect to join the Avengers.

    I do think what does it mean to be a Avenger when everyone or anyone is an Avenger is a valid question.

    For forty years the Avengers were a somewhat tight knit group of core characters with some other characters that floated in and out the books.

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