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  1. #61
    Incredible Member TerryAce's Avatar
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    Being 100 percent fair, I think Thanos wins but works for it.

    I also think Kalibak is just there to distract Thanos and maybe use his Fatherbox or Beta Club to run interference because Kalibak's like......upper mid tier New God, right?

    Above guys like Lightray and Bernadeth, but below Orion, Darkseid and Highfather.
    There is no "overkill". There is only "open fire" and "I need to reload.".

    I like to think the 90s was the time when comics hit puberty. They’d grown out of being endearing but hadn’t yet figured out where to channel their emotions to not be utterly whiny cocks. -Beadle

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    The GL blasted him, had him sealed and unable to move in an amber like construct, not just an energy cage for long enough that narration notes "finally" when he finally broke through. It's also explicitly noted that the GL's attention was elsewhere when this happened
    https://i.postimg.cc/h45kf1Lr/image.jpg
    https://i.postimg.cc/gkLfRL4P/image.jpg
    https://i.postimg.cc/tgRbhCYt/image.jpg
    Reading pretty heavily into the word "finally" here imo. The first page also says he "finally" broke through the exact same sort of barrier, only defensively around the GL like cracking an egg or whatever. They clearly throw out the word finally. This is also ignoring that Doomsday of that era typically put in the bare minimum effort until the threat escalated and could probably have shattered it much faster under Rumbles rules of bloodlust. Like in DoS where his first blow doesn't affect Supes but his second leaves Supes wondering if he's ever been hit that hard before. This is in fact kinda brought up in the panels where narration states he basically got mad and dug deep to break free.

    So two questions. 1: How much time do you feel passes here considering it hinges on the word "finally" which they show in scan one to be a term they use liberally and 2: Do you feel Doomsday would be starting off calm and using bare minimum effort in an Arena setting?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    Yes, but Braniac still controlled him for long enough to count as a win here, albeit with the caveats noted. Manchester Black was used by the govt to control DD in Our Worlds at War, at the end of which HP DD died, but only after near soloing the Impereix probes. I'd say he was on the same level, aside from this directly being his next appearance after DD wars
    Total agreement, the displayed TP resistance would be insufficient to stop any sort of 10-count victory against a reasonable telepath in the Arena.

    Yeah ok, I remember Blacks involvment in OWAW now. Although to be fair he really didn't puppet Doomsday about or directly control him. He just changed the visual of the probes to look like Superman iirc.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    It's good but not quite in the league of surviving supernovas or being only briefly KOd when being at the center of planets being fused together or even the shadow moon thing. And this was while he had the mother box healing him and such. In any case he was explicitly noted to be more powerful post infinite crisis
    The Motherbox armor didnt cover his face but his teeth and eyelids etc were still intact just fine. The Supernova involved a forcefield did it not? And y'know... sunlight unless it was red. The other stuff still knocked him unconscious while in HP he was clearly hurt but coherent and ready to keep fighting right after. Im ok saying it stands it's ground with those other feats, personally.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    The OB in the story had a specific thing with " Point blank range" such that Henshaw himself was able to bounce them till Darkseid hit him at closer range
    The Henshaw thing had more to do with Darkseid's own physical stamina and health recuperating from the Motherbox rather then distance. In Darkseid's own words I think he says something about his strength recovering being the issue. I'm sure someone has the scan. It didn't seem like a range issue.

    And even if it was, his super long distance beams from that story smashed through armor Supes couldnt touch. The sustained blast he hit Doomsday with was at nearly the same distance he one shot Henshaw with iirc. Like the first volley was at range but then he marches up close and slags where Doomsday has fallen. He is so close in fact that he barely manages to walk like 50 feet away before DD burst up and cuts him.

    So to recap: A hurt Darkseids long range beams smashed up armor Superman couldn't damage and made Superman himself scream and talk about how his arms felt on fire when he wasn't even the target. At closer range + a healthier body, they could one shot a Henshaw who had just upgraded himself further. A sustained blast (much longer than the Henshaw killing blast) at roughly the same range as the Henshaw killing blast didn't cause visible damage to Doomsday.
    "So full of hate were our eyes
    That none of us could see
    Our war would yield countless dead
    But never victory
    So let us cast arms aside
    And like discard our wrath
    Thou, in faith, will keep us safe
    Whilst we find the path"

    -The Covenant Writ of Union

  3. #63
    Extraordinary Member The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    Reading pretty heavily into the word "finally" here imo. The first page also says he "finally" broke through the exact same sort of barrier, only defensively around the GL like cracking an egg or whatever. They clearly throw out the word finally.
    Not really since it took multiple blows to crack the shield, indicated by the plural "blows" and the art. He didn't one shot it or anything, it clearly took many tries after bouncing off initially

    This is also ignoring that Doomsday of that era typically put in the bare minimum effort until the threat escalated and could probably have shattered it much faster under Rumbles rules of bloodlust.
    That's one reading of it. Another would be that he "adapts" to the threat level, which takes a while. Of course considering he was at "devastated half the planet" levels already when he met the GL, it's a moot point

    So two questions. 1: How much time do you feel passes here considering it hinges on the word "finally" which they show in scan one to be a term they use liberally and
    Enough for the lantern to place a trunk call through to Oa and have a chat

    2: Do you feel Doomsday would be starting off calm and using bare minimum effort in an Arena setting?
    Yeah I believe he'd be at "devastated half the planet" levels he was when he met the Lantern

    Yeah ok, I remember Blacks involvment in OWAW now. Although to be fair he really didn't puppet Doomsday about or directly control him. He just changed the visual of the probes to look like Superman iirc.
    Which is more than say Jonn managed, especially as the "illusion" stays up for days after Blacks gone from the scene. I actually don't think Thanos can "win" telepathically but he can slow down the beast. Maybe

    The Motherbox armor didnt cover his face but his teeth and eyelids etc were still intact just fine.
    The Motherbox was doing things like repairing his broken arm and brought back Darkseid to life. Kinda puts a bit of an asterisk

    The Supernova involved a forcefield did it not?
    Yes, for the folks inside. Supes was outside

    And y'know... sunlight unless it was red.
    Actually one of the reasons he has powers under a yellow sun is because it's "young" and red suns are "old".the same writer, in the same run has Superman gaining new powers under a younger blue sun. A supernova is actually the end of a star, so it should be the complete opposite, albeit of course it's comic books and such. Regardless supes at the time also didn't gain powers under stars from other dimensions etc. So it's far from a one size fits all, and a supernova is not exactly the same as a star (of any color)

    The other stuff still knocked him unconscious while in HP he was clearly hurt but coherent and ready to keep fighting right after. Im ok saying it stands it's ground with those other feats, personally.
    It's a laudable feat for the era, sure. But you have to admit, even setting aside that nukes don't even compare to planetary scale, that Supes was far from the celestial body moving-team type at the time, until OWAW and " Unlocking" his powers and such. And even that guy would lose to Thanos

    So to recap: A hurt Darkseids long range beams smashed up armor Superman couldn't damage and made Superman himself scream and talk about how his arms felt on fire when he wasn't even the target. At closer range + a healthier body, they could one shot a Henshaw who had just upgraded himself further. A sustained blast (much longer than the Henshaw killing blast) at roughly the same range as the Henshaw killing blast didn't cause visible damage to Doomsday.
    Yes Darkseid did bust the missiles and whatnot, but the whole thing came off as an exercise in damage control, like they wanted to "protect" everyone a little bit. Henshaw doesn't get transmuted by the initial blast, Darkseid has the "excuse" of not using at point blank range. Idk, it just seemed like they went "yeah DD won but... " Still, as you said just from what was displayed, it was pretty impressive. I just felt like I needed to note Darkseid's own objections

  4. #64
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    Thanos has an edge, but I do think DD is at least closely orbiting the guy in terms of physicality.
    I'd like to dig a little deeper on this one.

    What makes Doomsday at least close to Thanos, physically? Ie, strength, durability, speed (okay, neither of them have vast superspeed, so this I can see)?
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "...the Myths Transformed version of the legendarium, in which the Moon is Melkor's attempt to make his own Arda with blackjack and hookers."
    - Estrecca

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move."
    - Nik Hasta

    "[Kent] Nelson was nearly invariably presented as the guy who, barring the Spectre, made everyone else generally gasp and go "Doctor Fate don't shiv, he balls nasty.", even Superman."
    - Pendaran

  5. #65
    Extraordinary Member The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    I'd like to dig a little deeper on this one.

    What makes Doomsday at least close to Thanos, physically? Ie, strength, durability, speed (okay, neither of them have vast superspeed, so this I can see)?
    Some feats off the top of my head

    - Walked through Darkseid's OB and near murdered him on a day the OB is one shotting missiles supes can't scratch and turning Cyborg Superman into a metal ball when he is matching Superman in a fight

    - tore through the JLA big 7 mostly off panel, but includes stuff like Orion and Jonn lasting less than a minute against him

    - Wasn't even floored by Superman cutting loose with a barrage of blows and nearly one shotted him with a single hit of his own

    - laughed off most of Motherbox powered Superman's offence, including at one point an explosion that is described as a million nukes and turned the sand into glass

    - tore through an army of Impereix probes, even one of which was beating the whole JLA and nearly killed Wonder Woman, put Wally and Kyle out of action. Like DD was one shot exploding the heads off these things with punches

  6. #66
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Good list, thanks. Yeah, I can see it now.
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "...the Myths Transformed version of the legendarium, in which the Moon is Melkor's attempt to make his own Arda with blackjack and hookers."
    - Estrecca

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move."
    - Nik Hasta

    "[Kent] Nelson was nearly invariably presented as the guy who, barring the Spectre, made everyone else generally gasp and go "Doctor Fate don't shiv, he balls nasty.", even Superman."
    - Pendaran

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    I'd like to dig a little deeper on this one.

    What makes Doomsday at least close to Thanos, physically? Ie, strength, durability, speed (okay, neither of them have vast superspeed, so this I can see)?
    Yeah, sure, I would be happy to...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    Some feats off the top of my head

    - Walked through Darkseid's OB and near murdered him on a day the OB is one shotting missiles supes can't scratch and turning Cyborg Superman into a metal ball when he is matching Superman in a fight

    - tore through the JLA big 7 mostly off panel, but includes stuff like Orion and Jonn lasting less than a minute against him

    - Wasn't even floored by Superman cutting loose with a barrage of blows and nearly one shotted him with a single hit of his own

    - laughed off most of Motherbox powered Superman's offence, including at one point an explosion that is described as a million nukes and turned the sand into glass

    - tore through an army of Impereix probes, even one of which was beating the whole JLA and nearly killed Wonder Woman, put Wally and Kyle out of action. Like DD was one shot exploding the heads off these things with punches
    ......well. What he said. ^_^
    "So full of hate were our eyes
    That none of us could see
    Our war would yield countless dead
    But never victory
    So let us cast arms aside
    And like discard our wrath
    Thou, in faith, will keep us safe
    Whilst we find the path"

    -The Covenant Writ of Union

  8. #68
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    - tore through an army of Impereix probes, even one of which was beating the whole JLA and nearly killed Wonder Woman, put Wally and Kyle out of action. Like DD was one shot exploding the heads off these things with punches
    I'm incredibly dubious on using anything from OWAW as far as credible showings for anyone.

    If you guys want to treat Hunter/Prey Doomsday as this sort of specific Doomsday incident, sure, but OWAW is already after them comics happened.

    Yes, for the folks inside. Supes was outside
    Are you talking about the one where he was taking his dad through space?

  9. #69

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    OWAW was just the last time we see the HP Doomsday in action before a whoooole lot of nerfing occurs. It also fit his presentation just fine. The... inexplicable Superman power-up against the probes was incredibly silly of course.
    "So full of hate were our eyes
    That none of us could see
    Our war would yield countless dead
    But never victory
    So let us cast arms aside
    And like discard our wrath
    Thou, in faith, will keep us safe
    Whilst we find the path"

    -The Covenant Writ of Union

  10. #70
    Extraordinary Member The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    I'm incredibly dubious on using anything from OWAW as far as credible showings for anyone.

    If you guys want to treat Hunter/Prey Doomsday as this sort of specific Doomsday incident, sure, but OWAW is already after them comics happened.
    No up to OWAW is original DD- DoS, HP, DD Wars and OWAW where he dies. Subsequently all versions are clones till Rebirth. Yeah I suppose OWAW is kinda overkill for Superman characters, Superman being DD's partner in the Impereix probe soloing mission but DD himself was being consistently written as this uber high end threat for years after HP right up to where Superman notes the clone isn't quite the same deal


    Are you talking about the one where he was taking his dad through space?
    No. The one where Braniac bubbled part of the planet then blew up its sun, Superman was caught in the explosion and retrieved to Braniacs ship

  11. #71

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    Even in OWAW I believe a probe gave Supergirl a concussion and later briefly KO'd Clark with its suicide bomb thing.

    Really that final "Superman fights alongside DD" sequence doesn't even make sense based on its own logic.

    But yeah, Doomsday's stuff feels consistent for his presentation at least.
    "So full of hate were our eyes
    That none of us could see
    Our war would yield countless dead
    But never victory
    So let us cast arms aside
    And like discard our wrath
    Thou, in faith, will keep us safe
    Whilst we find the path"

    -The Covenant Writ of Union

  12. #72
    Extraordinary Member The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    Being as fair as one might, OWAW also featured General Lane blowing up a Probe with a suicide attack with a nuke I think. On the white House lawn. Yeah OWAW was.... partial to the Supes cast

  13. #73
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    Being as fair as one might, OWAW also featured General Lane blowing up a Probe with a suicide attack with a nuke I think. On the white House lawn. Yeah OWAW was.... partial to the Supes cast
    It's what I'm saying, as an overall sequence goes, it has.... problems. I'm sketchy thereby on the idea of using it for much. You can try to extract Doomsday from it all? But eeech. I would say you have enough to put forward for him from H/P.

  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    Being as fair as one might, OWAW also featured General Lane blowing up a Probe with a suicide attack with a nuke I think. On the white House lawn. Yeah OWAW was.... partial to the Supes cast
    That also involved black lightning and a sci fi tank of sorts right?

    Hippolyta and Aquaman both also killed probes iirc.

    I'm not defending OWAW mind you. It absolutely had issues with consistency. Like Kyle struggling against probes but then containing the big bang and what not.
    "So full of hate were our eyes
    That none of us could see
    Our war would yield countless dead
    But never victory
    So let us cast arms aside
    And like discard our wrath
    Thou, in faith, will keep us safe
    Whilst we find the path"

    -The Covenant Writ of Union

  15. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    It's what I'm saying, as an overall sequence goes, it has.... problems. I'm sketchy thereby on the idea of using it for much. You can try to extract Doomsday from it all? But eeech. I would say you have enough to put forward for him from H/P.
    That's fair.

    My argument is less one of feat consistency and more of a matter of character presentation. DD matched up to his portrayal overall which is why im kinda ok with it if you squint.

    It's like they realized he was a bit too beefy and so used it as an opportunity to then nerf his subsequent showings with imperfect cloning shenanagins.
    "So full of hate were our eyes
    That none of us could see
    Our war would yield countless dead
    But never victory
    So let us cast arms aside
    And like discard our wrath
    Thou, in faith, will keep us safe
    Whilst we find the path"

    -The Covenant Writ of Union

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