View Poll Results: Where would you rate this?

Voters
20. You may not vote on this poll
  • ⭐️

    0 0%
  • ⭐️⭐️

    1 5.00%
  • ⭐️⭐️⭐️

    7 35.00%
  • ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️

    5 25.00%
  • ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ ⭐️

    7 35.00%
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 54
  1. #31
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    7,790

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Note that Rucka's Amazons already had some powers on the islands: they do bullets and bracelets with the guns that Steve's team's plane had, and they repair the plane so it is invisible as well. Thus I think it can be argued that even young Diana in Rucka's continuity would be capable of strength feats.



    I think that it's much more sensible to look at the individual runs rather than trying to view them as a whole. Fontana's run (which IMO is underrated) looks like it is continuity with Rucka's run, while Robinson's is in continuity with Azzarello's run. Orlando's first run is all over the place, but seems to be more following Azzarello's run, while Wilson went in hard in tying her run to Rucka's one.

    What I think is that there were people at DC who wanted the Zeus origin to remain, and that it required writers who were adamant in their belief in the clay origin in order to just keep Zeus on the sidelines: neither Rucka nor Wilson were allowed to change that aspect. But Wilson is working in references to the clay origin every time she can, and now I think she has managed to convince Tynion to follow her lead as well, in burying Zeus.
    From what I read, because I jumped ship early, Robinsons run is in continuity with Rucka's, not Azzarello's. Diana being a daughter of Zeus and having a brother do not contradict anything in the Rucka run. Rucka just did not want to focus in that stuff. Orlando's did not reference anything in the Azzarello run from what I remember, it primarily used stuff from the Bronze age and Perez.

    Overall Rebirth has been one of the more consistent era's, even in the low points.

  2. #32
    Relic Seeker Pinsir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Ravnica
    Posts
    3,724

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    From what I read, because I jumped ship early, Robinsons run is in continuity with Rucka's, not Azzarello's. Diana being a daughter of Zeus and having a brother do not contradict anything in the Rucka run. Rucka just did not want to focus in that stuff. Orlando's did not reference anything in the Azzarello run from what I remember, it primarily used stuff from the Bronze age and Perez.

    Overall Rebirth has been one of the more consistent era's, even in the low points.
    You've said that before and I don't really see how this is the case. I don't think people were raising these sort of questions before Rebirth.
    Want to read Wonder Woman stories, but don't know where to start? Check out my top 10 lists for Golden Age, Silver Age, Bronze Age and Modern Age Wonder Woman tales!

    I don't dislike the MCU films because they're Marvel branded, I dislike them because they're bad films.

  3. #33
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
    Posts
    2,983

    Default

    Based on Empress Hippolyta’s reaction to and mulling over of Prime Earth’s Diana and her relationship with Queen Hippolyta, I’m fully expecting that we’ll see Empress Hippolyta’s version of Diana in the next issue.

    I enjoyed the return of Queen Atomia in this issue of Wonder Woman and Orlando’s deep dive into Wonder lore... it also has shades of Tara Terruna of Pre-Crisis Earth-59.

    We’ll see how it all plays out.

  4. #34
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    7,790

    Default

    Read my copy this morning. Overall, an enjoyable fill-in issue by a writer who has a clear love of the character and her history. Orlando's issues have been bogged down by the fact that we know they are essentially filler; that's hardly his fault, he's doing what he's hired to do and doing better than average IMO, but we'll see how important Dimension Chi is in the next couple issues. It clues Diana in that her mother is still alive, but that seems to be an inevtiable plot point that we didn't need Dimension Chi to inform us about. So far, I feel like she, Molly and Atlantidades could have just arrived at Themyscira from the last issue with this side trip and flashback being unnecessary. We'll see if Wilson even brings it up.

    Aside from Atlantidades being drawn as way too feminine, the art by Lopresti was a major step up than what we've usually been getting in this run. I loved the design for Empress Hippolyta and wish it was the regular one (I prefer her as blonde to more distinguished from Diana), as well as the update for Atomia. Her appearance was a delight, and I love how Orlando brings back obscure WW villains whenever he can (including Inversion, Tezkatlipoca, the Adjudicator and Aegeus). His willingness to do it would have me interested in him being the regular writer instead of just doing filler.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    You've said that before and I don't really see how this is the case. I don't think people were raising these sort of questions before Rebirth.
    I think at least some of that is in part due to fans creating confusion for themselves because they had hopes for a different outcome than what the Lies/the Truth provided. Namely, they wanted Rucka to return the clay birth, but he didn't, he just presented it as part of her conflicting memories but did not firmly say it was true nor did he remove the Zeus parentage. So when Robinson brought Zeus back into focus and brought back Grail, some fans said he was retconnning Rucka's retcons when he honestly did no such thing. His run sucked, but it was still a clear continuation of Rebirth so far, with brunette Hippolyta and Philippus being seen on Themyscira, a reference to Sasha, appearances by the Oddfellows, Cheetah, Veronica Cale and Dr. Cyber. Orlando went on to do an issue focusing on Mayfly, introduced in Fontana's arc. And now Wilson is mainly continuing from Rucka, but Grail played a part in freeing Ares because that's where she was left in the Robinson run. Wilson may not like the Zeus origin, but she's mostly just snuck in vague references to the clay birth, nothing solid.

    Even here Empress Hippolyta says she contemplated making a clay child, but Diana doesn't mention the same being done in her creation, just that her mother was the first to have a child on Themyscira. That could still apply to her being pregnant from Zeus. I think DC has been pretty transparent with deciding on having it both ways (classic Hippolyta and Amazons, but Zeus parentage), and a lot of fans aren't wholly satisfied with that and then saying the origins are contradicting. But, IMO, they're not. Jason was mentioned in the Rebirth one shot, Rucka was just allowed to not develop it in his run (and even he teased it in the first issue).

  5. #35
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    2,760

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by NYCER View Post
    I forget where I saw this but I believe the current directive at DC to writers is for said writers to come up with "good" stories continuity be damned. Obviously those were not the exact words used, but that was the key takeaway, which, to me, is a never-ending source of headaches as a reader.
    In a way, I think if that was the main directive, I don't think we'd see the sudden shifts that we see at times. Creativitity often requires some form of constraint and things to push against, and having an established prior situation is an excellent way to kickstart that.

    I can easily see DC trying to say that this is their policy when they talk to fen, but that's not the same as what they are actually asking their writers and editors to do. My impression is rather that there is a firm hierarchy within DC, where some writers have great leeway to tell whatever story they want, and other writers have to adjust to whatever comes their way be it in forms of editorial dictates or plot twists from other titles.
    Last edited by kjn; 06-30-2019 at 01:52 AM. Reason: clarity
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  6. #36
    Incredible Member Largo161's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    New York, NY
    Posts
    643

    Default

    I’ve been boycotting the title since Rucka’s departure. As much as I loved his run it still left us with the stain of the Zeus daddy origin. But I do keep up with what y’all are saying about each new issue in these CBR streets. The praise Orlando has been getting plus the implicit nod to a clay origin enticed me to buy the latest issue. To keep it simple, I loved it!

    That is all. The boycott will now resume.

  7. #37
    Relic Seeker Pinsir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Ravnica
    Posts
    3,724

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I think at least some of that is in part due to fans creating confusion for themselves because they had hopes for a different outcome than what the Lies/the Truth provided. Namely, they wanted Rucka to return the clay birth, but he didn't, he just presented it as part of her conflicting memories but did not firmly say it was true nor did he remove the Zeus parentage. So when Robinson brought Zeus back into focus and brought back Grail, some fans said he was retconnning Rucka's retcons when he honestly did no such thing. His run sucked, but it was still a clear continuation of Rebirth so far, with brunette Hippolyta and Philippus being seen on Themyscira, a reference to Sasha, appearances by the Oddfellows, Cheetah, Veronica Cale and Dr. Cyber. Orlando went on to do an issue focusing on Mayfly, introduced in Fontana's arc. And now Wilson is mainly continuing from Rucka, but Grail played a part in freeing Ares because that's where she was left in the Robinson run. Wilson may not like the Zeus origin, but she's mostly just snuck in vague references to the clay birth, nothing solid.

    Even here Empress Hippolyta says she contemplated making a clay child, but Diana doesn't mention the same being done in her creation, just that her mother was the first to have a child on Themyscira. That could still apply to her being pregnant from Zeus. I think DC has been pretty transparent with deciding on having it both ways (classic Hippolyta and Amazons, but Zeus parentage), and a lot of fans aren't wholly satisfied with that and then saying the origins are contradicting. But, IMO, they're not. Jason was mentioned in the Rebirth one shot, Rucka was just allowed to not develop it in his run (and even he teased it in the first issue).
    I agree that a lot of this confusion is the result of fans trying to head canon the Zeus origin from existence, but I think this type of thinking has been enabled by creators. Rucka's origin story is one of the few for the character that does not divulge Wonder Woman's birth and this seemed to be an intentional oversight on his part and now we have Orlando with the clay origin. At a minimum, we can view this line as moment of fan service, though in the context of the story, it doesn't mean the same to Wonder Woman. WW only knows the clay origin through the 'lie', that is the New 52 run. Its actually not even clear in Rebirth continuity when Wonder Woman learned about her divine parentage or if she was ever told she was made from clay. So evil Hippo's statement doesn't make much sense in the context of the wider continuity.
    Last edited by Pinsir; 06-29-2019 at 11:30 PM.
    Want to read Wonder Woman stories, but don't know where to start? Check out my top 10 lists for Golden Age, Silver Age, Bronze Age and Modern Age Wonder Woman tales!

    I don't dislike the MCU films because they're Marvel branded, I dislike them because they're bad films.

  8. #38
    Fantastic Member Ulysses's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Posts
    327

    Default

    This was a story about the conflict between motherhood and careerism. It was also about abortion. Cool book.

  9. #39
    Fantastic Member Ulysses's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Posts
    327

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    In this case, I think the framing story can be easily ignored, if you just encounter it for the first time. Diana is with friends in spot familiar to her, she tells a story, they go on to new adventures.

    And when I was talking about it as a Golden Age callback, I wasn't really thinking about the mechanics of how Diana ended up in a strange place. But in structure and in its sensibilities, the story is very close to the one in Sensation Comics #11.



    That's a benevolent interpretation of what Orlando intended. But I'm not sure what ended up on the page has that effect.

    Empress Hippolyta was created to test if Queen Hippolyta made a moral choice in choosing to give birth to Diana. Here we have two options: either Empress Hippolyta was created power-mad so she would reject motherhood, or the rejection of motherhood caused her to go power-mad. I find both options deeply distasteful.

    The comic is caught in and recreates the same structure that you start to describe, where embracing motherhood is viewed as weakness (or uselessness) and not embracing motherhood is viewed as morally bad. The story on the page rejects the first thesis, but does nothing to reject the second thesis, and thus ends up reinforcing it.

    What was needed was to reject both of the theses: motherhood is not weakness, and choosing to become a mother does not make you better or worse as a person.

    Instead we have evil Empress Hippolyta who did a symbolic abortion by throwing the lump of clay into the sea, and her possible return to grace is tied to seeing the value of motherhood. The more I think about this, the worse it smells.
    Because you don't agree with this or because it wasn't well done?

  10. #40
    Fantastic Member Ulysses's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Posts
    327

    Default

    (error)...

  11. #41
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    7,272

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyssane View Post
    Please don't start threads without contributing anything substantial to the conversation (as per forum rules).

    That said, I liked it far more than anything Wilson has done so far. And he brought back Atomia!
    I like it better than the last three issues of Wilson, and Aaron Lopresti ALWAYS impresses.

    But I’m having trouble giving it a star rating because it feels so rushed! The panels of Diana getting there don’t even seem to match up with the narrative, like there are panels missing. Basically this feels to me like a story that should have been told over two or even three issues, and we are getting the cliff notes/Wikipedia synopsis.

    Did anyone else get that impression?

    Edit- I ended up giving it three, but would have given it 7 out of 10
    Last edited by brettc1; 06-30-2019 at 02:33 AM.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  12. #42
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    2,760

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulysses View Post
    Because you don't agree with this or because it wasn't well done?
    Let me put it this way: I find the way the story connects being power-mad (or evil) with abortion a misogynistic and morally reprehensible message.

    If Gaelforce's reading of the story as the conflict between family and career is what Orlando intended, then I think Orlando did a poor job at it because he (and the DC editorial team) failed to realise they had put another hugely unwanted message into the story.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  13. #43
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    7,272

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Let me put it this way: I find the way the story connects being power-mad (or evil) with abortion a misogynistic and morally reprehensible message.

    If Gaelforce's reading of the story as the conflict between family and career is what Orlando intended, then I think Orlando did a poor job at it because he (and the DC editorial team) failed to realise they had put another hugely unwanted message into the story.
    Abortion?

    Yeah, I guess I can kind of see the connection here if I squint real hard, but I think it’s a stretch.

    Basically, writers cannot always police what the reader is going to bring to the story, because that leads to not even bothering to write in the first place. So, no, I don’t think they put an unwanted message in - I think that’s just where some people’s minds went and you can’t always reasonably anticipate that.

    It’s pretty clear (to me) that despite whatever connection it has to Hippolyta, Dimension Chi has a life all its own. Otherwise Diana and her mother would never have been imprisoned in the first place. It’s like a Krell machine created Id world (and a not so subtle rebuke of the Azarellozons )
    Last edited by brettc1; 06-30-2019 at 02:42 AM.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  14. #44
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    2,760

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Abortion?

    Yeah, I guess I can kind of see the connection here if I squint real hard, but I think it’s a stretch.
    From page 3 of the issue, bottom frame:

    Your daughter is just a reminder of when I threw that clay child into the ocean and took up the spear, meant to distract me.
    The metaphor is rather strong here, I think. And even if you remove the abortion subtext, I find the underlying handling on the question of motherhood deeply troubling. Corrina over at Geekdad also discussed this in her review of the issue.

    It might make her pour more of herself into her people, be more involved intimately in their lives, but that doesn’t mean that involvement would lead to warlike conquest. If I weren’t a mother, I would probably write more, yes, and might have stuck with a full-time journalism career. But I’d have the same basic personality. Being childless wouldn’t make me cold or hard–my compassion might be spread out more among friends and family, that’s all.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  15. #45
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    7,272

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    From page 3 of the issue, bottom frame:



    The metaphor is rather strong here, I think. And even if you remove the abortion subtext, I find the underlying handling on the question of motherhood deeply troubling. Corrina over at Geekdad also discussed this in her review of the issue.
    Yeah, but this ignores the context put forward by this page, which establishes that there is more at work than just the longing for a child.

    The Empress isn’t just career oriented, she’s a full on militant conqueror. The whole world is a dark mirror universe. The Empress doesn’t just suddenly become bad because she decides not to have a child. Her not wanting a child, according to the story, is prompted by her desire to focus on conquest.

    Personally I’m not sure what Hippolyta was hoping to achieve in this exercise, but the link between no kids and outright evil is thin, IMO. Is Talia al Ghul suddenly less bad because she wanted a kid when she date-raped Batman?

    E51A6E06-4855-4251-8A6D-927BD9EB8C23.jpg
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •