How would you reboot Wonder Woman (and the entire DC universe)?

[Gaius]

THIS. I'd employ some wacky magics like planetary alignments or a solar eclipse and a veil of some kind, like a fog or storm cloud or something, and still require a dance or something for the barrier to drop.

But then, that's just the front door. You can always sing the Song of the Dead and travel to Themyscira via the Underworld.

Yeah, writers have had Themyscira get invaded one too many times for my liking so this is my solution to that. I'm thinking Steve only got through because of something like Ares wanting to lure out Diana out from the safety of Themyscira

[Tzigone]

Yeah, writers have had Themyscira get invaded one too many times for my liking so this is my solution to that. I'm thinking Steve only got through because of something like Ares wanting to lure out Diana out from the safety of Themyscira

I'm disinclined to make Steve being there the work of evil/enemy. Moreover, I'd think Ares would be much happier with Diana on the island and not interfering with his plans than out in the world, causing him trouble. Though I suppose there's the irony of him causing his own problems.

I agree about be so tired of invasions, though.

Anyone have a specific era for the Amazons to come from? I tend to tie them to Hercules, who died before Trojan War. Problem come from looking at that actual time frame (as I understand all the surviving myths about it to be of much later origin). My sister tried a little, but the mythology was different, the place the Amazons supposedly came from not yet under Greek influence, I think? Could be getting mixed up - she did the Googling, and I just listened to a comment or three. Would it be better to use the era the myths we have were crafted in?

I understand currency wasn't really a thing yet and palace economies were more common. Obviously, we should expect both technological and cultural changes in the 3000 years that pass between then and Diana leaving the island, but I like the idea of knowing a basic (even if mythologized and not like real-world) starting point to have an idea on mindset. Also need to know how large the population is and what their needs are (do they need to eat, are they all strong so don't need the same mechanization/draft animals, do they get sick, etc.) to derive/imagine what directions that tech might take. I do, however, generally have the idea that with one group of immortal women, you would get less change (after the first few decades of setting up an entirely new society) that you would multiple generations dying and be born and new women making the decisions.

[Gaius]

I'm disinclined to make Steve being there the work of evil/enemy. Moreover, I'd think Ares would be much happier with Diana on the island and not interfering with his plans than out in the world, causing him trouble. Though I suppose there's the irony of him causing his own problems.

To clarify I'm not making Steve a villain, he just would have been manipulated similar to how it went in the Perez origin. I was going for the idea of Ares sewing the seeds of his own defeat/worst enemy by trying to counter it since the irony fits in with many stories from Greek myth.

Anyone have a specific era for the Amazons to come from? I tend to tie them to Hercules, who died before Trojan War. Problem come from looking at that actual time frame (as I understand all the surviving myths about it to be of much later origin). My sister tried a little, but the mythology was different, the place the Amazons supposedly came from not yet under Greek influence, I think? Could be getting mixed up - she did the Googling, and I just listened to a comment or three. Would it be better to use the era the myths we have were crafted in?

I understand currency wasn't really a thing yet and palace economies were more common. Obviously, we should expect both technological and cultural changes in the 3000 years that pass between then and Diana leaving the island, but I like the idea of knowing a basic (even if mythologized and not like real-world) starting point to have an idea on mindset. Also need to know how large the population is and what their needs are (do they need to eat, are they all strong so don't need the same mechanization/draft animals, do they get sick, etc.) to derive/imagine what directions that tech might take. I do, however, generally have the idea that with one group of immortal women, you would get less change (after the first few decades of setting up an entirely new society) that you would multiple generations dying and be born and new women making the decisions.

I generally had the idea the Amazons went into isolation around the time of the Trojan War since that's seen as the end of the Greek Heroic Age. Which historians have theorized if such a conflict did take place it would have been around the 11th-12th B.C. centuries during the Bronze Age collapse.

[marhawkman]

Which is why I'd move it allllll the way west to Gateway City(San Francisco). DC is far too conservative and low to the ground. Diana's city should have a Pegasus-mounted police force. Multi-dimensional embassies for Skartaris, Atlantis, and Gemworld. And a populace that suffers regular "acts of god" earthquakes that force them to consider magical thinking and alternative faiths.

Part of Wonder Woman's problem is her perceived "aloofness". While I agree part of that is her transient nature and not interacting with a community, its also the fact that the community she inhabits never has to contend with problems for which she is designed. Let's see race riots and weird cults and generational misunderstandings, women in power, women in refuge, diplomacy and peace-brokering. The San Franciscan bay is another plus: It allows for regular invasions by Clea and her contingent of Atlantean separatists.

Well using a real-world location always carries the expectation of it being like the real-world location. That's why Batman lives in Gotham, and Superman in Metropolis. You can say whatever you want about a fictional city.

[Gaius]

While I don't like trying to make him a WW villain, if I were to try and make Maxwell Lord a Wonder Woman rogues gallery member he could kind of work as evil counterpart to Steve Trevor as a spy operative. His mental powers might make him even better suited to some stories rather than Dr. Psycho.

[CRaymond]

While I don't like trying to make him a WW villain, if I were to try and make Maxwell Lord a Wonder Woman rogues gallery member he could kind of work as evil counterpart to Steve Trevor as a spy operative. His mental powers might make him even better suited to some stories rather than Dr. Psycho.

I'd make Maxwell Lord the secret identity of Doctor Psycho.

[Gaius]

I'd make Maxwell Lord the secret identity of Doctor Psycho.

That would be interesting, maybe every appearance of "Max" was a mind illusion by Psycho.

[marhawkman]

Hmmm seems like a bit of a stretch, but some of what Max did was... weird like that.

[CRaymond]

Hmmm seems like a bit of a stretch, but some of what Max did was... weird like that.

A LOT of my reboot ideas are grand, arcane, and controversial. My Gateway City ideas are really unrestrained. My Themyscira ones are much more specific.

[kjn]

Anyone have a specific era for the Amazons to come from? I tend to tie them to Hercules, who died before Trojan War. Problem come from looking at that actual time frame (as I understand all the surviving myths about it to be of much later origin). My sister tried a little, but the mythology was different, the place the Amazons supposedly came from not yet under Greek influence, I think? Could be getting mixed up - she did the Googling, and I just listened to a comment or three. Would it be better to use the era the myths we have were crafted in?

I understand currency wasn't really a thing yet and palace economies were more common. Obviously, we should expect both technological and cultural changes in the 3000 years that pass between then and Diana leaving the island, but I like the idea of knowing a basic (even if mythologized and not like real-world) starting point to have an idea on mindset. Also need to know how large the population is and what their needs are (do they need to eat, are they all strong so don't need the same mechanization/draft animals, do they get sick, etc.) to derive/imagine what directions that tech might take. I do, however, generally have the idea that with one group of immortal women, you would get less change (after the first few decades of setting up an entirely new society) that you would multiple generations dying and be born and new women making the decisions.

I think getting to tied to history—or mythology—can be a troubling and limiting, but there are also lots of storytelling possibilities.

I'm firmly of the idea that rather than having the Amazons be inspired by the Greek, the Greek (and the Egyptians, and the Sumerians, and the Indus Valley Civilisation, and the first Chinese civilisation) should have been inspired by the Amazons. Take that element of Pérez of the Amazons as carriers of civilisation, and bring it up to eleven.

The Amazons being active in the Trojan War despite Hercules being far earlier can be easily handled: just have it be the Bana-Mighdall that comes to assist the Trojans. It's not like the uncultured Mycanean Greeks can manage to see the difference between one group of Amazons and another A good storyteller should be able to come up with more ways to handle it.

As for your other comments, I think what the Amazons need is a Roddenberry: someone who sets out to focus on their utopian elements and really delves into them.

[Artemisfanboy]

Anyone have a specific era for the Amazons to come from? I tend to tie them to Hercules, who died before Trojan War. Problem come from looking at that actual time frame (as I understand all the surviving myths about it to be of much later origin). My sister tried a little, but the mythology was different, the place the Amazons supposedly came from not yet under Greek influence, I think? Could be getting mixed up - she did the Googling, and I just listened to a comment or three. Would it be better to use the era the myths we have were crafted in?

The Amazons being active in the Trojan War despite Hercules being far earlier can be easily handled: just have it be the Bana-Mighdall that comes to assist the Trojans. It's not like the uncultured Mycanean Greeks can manage to see the difference between one group of Amazons and another A good storyteller should be able to come up with more ways to handle it.

According to mythology, Penthesilea was the Queen of the amazons by the time of Trojan war, having suceeded her sisters Hippolyta, and Antiope. The three of them, along with a fourth sister, Melanippe were the daughters of the Amazon queen Otrera, and Ares. Hippolyta and Melanippe were were said to have been killed in the Hercules episode, while Antiope was abducted by Theseus, leaving Penthesilea queen.

For the DC universe,One can easily position Penthesilea as Hippolyta and Antiope's youngest sister and as either a succesor to Antiope(if you want to keep her as the founder of the Bana) or replacement for Antiope(if you want to move Antiope into a her movie characterization as Diana's cool aunt).

[Agent Z]

I'm firmly of the idea that rather than having the Amazons be inspired by the Greek, the Greek (and the Egyptians, and the Sumerians, and the Indus Valley Civilisation, and the first Chinese civilisation) should have been inspired by the Amazons. Take that element of Pérez of the Amazons as carriers of civilisation, and bring it up to eleven.

I'm normally in agreement with you but I think having the Amazons be the inspiration for civilization is a bad and tone deaf idea. It brings to mind ideas like "aliens built the Egyptian and Mayan pyramids". Having fictional races and characters be responsible for real life accomplishments just always feels offensive.

[kjn]

@Artemisfanboy: Exactly. There are lots of variables and story elements you can play with here. Including pointing out the things that Homer got wrong. My personal take would be that Achilles was a trans woman, and also that his mother Thetis might have been an Amazon.

I'm normally in agreement with you but I think having the Amazons be the inspiration for civilization is a bad and tone deaf idea. It brings to mind ideas like "aliens built the Egyptian and Mayan pyramids". Having fictional races and characters be responsible for real life accomplishments just always feels offensive.

It is a concern, but I'm not sure it's a critical one. Or perhaps better put, when working with themes and real history, nearly every creative decision will bring some concerns. It's more important how things are handled and executed in how these concerns are realised or not realised.

As to the specifics, there are two elements to it that I see. One is the very real—and colonialistic—take that aliens built the Pyramids, or similar stuff. That one is concerning partly because it downplays the accomplishments of non-Western cultures while keeping the accomplishments of the Western ones. Having the Amazons as the "spearhead" for every Old World civilisation however has a slightly different dynamic in this regard.

Another comes down to execution. I don't want to put in the Amazons as having built the Pyramids, or the Hanging Gardens of Babylon, or any of the other wonders of the ancient world (the temple to Artemis of Efesos is the one big exception, but that's already associated with the Amazons). Rather, I want the Amazons to be the catalysts and advisors of early civilisation—and sometimes also bringing them in touch with each other.

Or if a writer has other good ideas that are executed well on the prehistory of the Amazons, I'm all for it.

[CRaymond]

Anyone have a specific era for the Amazons to come from?

I have Hippolyte being a legendary adventurer at the same time as Heracles' initial labors. She's actually far more prolific, and has eleven to his five. They meet as allies and she accompanies him on the sixth, seventh, and eighth... whereupon they have a falling out and she leaves to form Amazonia on the southern shores of the Black Sea. It's not until years later that Heracles is given his 9th labor that destroys the city of the Amazons. Hippolyte survives, rallies half of Olympus, almost kills Heracles, and succeeds in winning freedom and immortality from the gods.

As for the Trojan War, Hecuba is herself an Amazon who ventured beyond the island, married Priam and became Queen of Troy. She uses magic to summon a small battalion from Themyscira, and again uses magic to send her daughters, including the oracle Cassandra, back to the island. Reports of Amazons being conquered and enslaved following the Trojan War are fictions.

It's an inversion, things that are considered myth are magical fact, things considered vague history are patriarchal fictions. It's a recurring theme built on Hippolyte's covenant with Zeus: In exchange for their lives, the Amazons would be mythologized and denigrated in Man's World.

[Gaius]

I have Hippolyte being a legendary adventurer at the same time as Heracles' initial labors. She's actually far more prolific, and has eleven to his five. They meet as allies and she accompanies him on the sixth, seventh, and eighth... whereupon they have a falling out and she leaves to form Amazonia on the southern shores of the Black Sea. It's not until years later that Heracles is given his 9th labor that destroys the city of the Amazons. Hippolyte survives, rallies half of Olympus, almost kills Heracles, and succeeds in winning freedom and immortality from the gods.

As for the Trojan War, Hecuba is herself an Amazon who ventured beyond the island, married Priam and became Queen of Troy. She uses magic to summon a small battalion from Themyscira, and again uses magic to send her daughters, including the oracle Cassandra, back to the island. Reports of Amazons being conquered and enslaved following the Trojan War are fictions.

It's an inversion, things that are considered myth are magical fact, things considered vague history are patriarchal fictions. It's a recurring theme built on Hippolyte's covenant with Zeus: In exchange for their lives, the Amazons would be mythologized and denigrated in Man's World.

Like your idea with Hippolyta. I also had the idea she was a proto-Wonder Woman/mythical Greek hero in her own right prior to her to becoming Queen and Themyscira's isolation.