Avengers 20, we are at peak Aaron people!

[Biclopcicle]

That's not what he's saying at all. He's not invalidating any previous characterizations. He's building on what's come before and bringing a perspective on the character that wouldn't have been possible previously because the culture was in a different place.

How is that so? Jen's statements about being ogled are out of character. Old Jen was proactive about the attantion she got, and if someone were to grab her or pinch her, she would've ended them. This Jen saying that is harder than being ugly or being Savage Hulk doesn't jibe with what's come before

[InformationGeek]

Consider for a second that this isn’t at all what he is trying to say. It certainly isn’t the way I read it. Most critics don’t seem to be reading it this way either. It’s a reading, but personally I think it misses the entire point. It feels like a defensive reading to me.

Just because a bunch of people read something one way... does not mean someone can read or see the same thing and get the same thing out of it. Just because I read it one way doesn't mean I'm wrong, nor does it mean they are wrong. Everyone gets something out something differently than others.

It’s a comedic commentary. No need to take it personally. He is accusing some people of being trolls as a joke. I mostly agree with the sentiment. Stridently moaning about an issue that happened several years ago after the arguments have been had and after taking pains to not do what he was being accused of must have been frustrating and must have felt very troll-like. It is frankly surprising he took so long to make the joke, but perhaps it’s untimely nature is part of the joke.

I don't see it as funny. I just don't anymore. After Chelsea Cain's Man-Eaters incident, I cannot take this stuff with good faith or good-nature joking anymore. It just reads as bad now.

Hmm. That’s odd. So you at least considered that it might be. Maybe you are choosing to read it as something else? If you do that it might seem messy. If you do that you are not really giving it respect though.

I can consider it be character-focused and I believe that is the idea. The problem lies in how it ultimately it reads to me. It gives me the same impression as Marville #6 did, though not as petty and bitter admittedly.

But it is consistent so that undermines this assertion don’t you think? The very first thing we see of her in Avengers #1 is her being hassled by some guys in the street. That is dead on the theme he clearly had in mind all along.

Not really. I remember her being hassled. Remember what she looked like? Still herself. She wasn't in her She-Hulk form. She was still her human self. This issue is bringing up not being respected in her classic She-Hulk form. The point would work or be stronger if Jen was still She-Hulk and was helping solve a situation, but got hit on anyways in the future issue. As such, the opening issue just reads as her still struggling with her hulk issues and not the theme.


[QUOTE=jwatson;4429118]

The old she hulk didn't have the respect of the All-mother who watched in Awe as she fought.

Well, to be fair, has she ever been around the All-Mother? ;P

Proably because they feel their pin ups aren't the same anymore.

Wow. That is a gross-oversimplication of the character. That's... awful man. Is that all you saw her as?

[Kurolegacy]

Most arguments i have seen are "omg why isn't she hot" but if shehulk was a man people would be eating up she is stronger than she has ever been, more relevant than she has ever been. and we actually get to see more sides to her in that she actually let's the human Jen out to interact as well. This is the first time Jen and SheHulk are truly working together.

If this is what you’ve gotten out of the posts in this thread, you’ve definitely not been reading them and instead just generalize them into what you want them to be rather than what was actually said. Also Jen and She-Hulk are one in the same, not separate entities like the case of Bruce with his personas. There is no swapping of minds, just amplification of who she is and wants to be. Hell Hulk even called her out on how she’s been in Aaron’s book not that I expect Aaron to ever acknowledge it:

[jwatson]

Just because a bunch of people read something one way... does not mean someone can read or see the same thing and get the same thing out of it. Just because I read it one way doesn't mean I'm wrong, nor does it mean they are wrong. Everyone gets something out something differently than others.




I don't see it as funny. I just don't anymore. After Chelsea Cain's Man-Eaters incident, I cannot take this stuff with good faith or good-nature joking anymore. It just reads as bad now.




I can consider it be character-focused and I believe that is the idea. The problem lies in how it ultimately it reads to me. It gives me the same impression as Marville #6 did, though not as petty and bitter admittedly.



Not really. I remember her being hassled. Remember what she looked like? Still herself. She wasn't in her She-Hulk form. She was still her human self. This issue is bringing up not being respected in her classic She-Hulk form. The point would work or be stronger if Jen was still She-Hulk and was helping solve a situation, but got hit on anyways in the future issue. As such, the opening issue just reads as her still struggling with her hulk issues and not the theme.



Well, to be fair, has she ever been around the All-Mother? ;P



Wow. That is a gross-oversimplication of the character. That's... awful man. Is that all you saw her as?

I'm not the one focusing on her old looks. That seems to be the "Fans" who like her how she was. Also you just proved my point of relevance, old she hulk was never around the all-mother. ^_- They would have called hulk.

[JKtheMac]

After Chelsea Cain's Man-Eaters incident, I cannot take this stuff with good faith or good-nature joking anymore. It just reads as bad now.

I would suggest don't conflate things. Especially as I don't really know who you are talking about, so clearly she has nothing to do with this comic.

Not really. I remember her being hassled. Remember what she looked like? Still herself. She wasn't in her She-Hulk form. She was still her human self. This issue is bringing up not being respected in her classic She-Hulk form. The point would work or be stronger if Jen was still She-Hulk and was helping solve a situation, but got hit on anyways in the future issue. As such, the opening issue just reads as her still struggling with her hulk issues and not the theme.

You may want to go and reread it. She begins to turn when she is being sexualised and then convinces herself not to. Clearly this means more now. It certainly means this was at the core of her characterisation on day one and so this isn't a reactive issue it is a thematic one. I suggest it is you who may perhaps be being reactive.

[Ultimate Captain America]

It would seem that Mallory Book was right all along...

[jwatson]

If this is what you’ve gotten out of the posts in this thread, you’ve definitely not been reading them and instead just generalize them into what you want them to be rather than what was actually said. Also Jen and She-Hulk are one in the same, not separate entities like the case of Bruce with his personas. There is no swapping of minds, just amplification of who she is and wants to be. Hell Hulk even called her out on how she’s been in Aaron’s book not that I expect Aaron to ever acknowledge it:

ok then so what is the problem with Jen being more powerful and more relevant if it's still Jen. What exactly is the problem? Maybe you can enlighten me to what i'm missing. She is a forefront character now who is one of the most power characters in the marvel universe and a go to hero. Most wish their fave got as much in MArvel U world respect as she is garnering.

[BlackClaw]

I don’t mind the look that much. I just want She-Hulk to have the speech pattern of a regular human being again. Is that too much to ask?

[JKtheMac]

If this is what you’ve gotten out of the posts in this thread, you’ve definitely not been reading them and instead just generalize them into what you want them to be rather than what was actually said. Also Jen and She-Hulk are one in the same, not separate entities like the case of Bruce with his personas. There is no swapping of minds, just amplification of who she is and wants to be. Hell Hulk even called her out on how she’s been in Aaron’s book not that I expect Aaron to ever acknowledge it:

Wow. That sure was a scathing call out. So scathing I don't even see it. It looks to me like an acknowledgement of what Aaron is doing, not a critique. In a book where the writer is equally shifting canon.

[jwatson]

I don’t mind the look that much. I just want She-Hulk to have the speech pattern of a regular human being again. Is that too much to ask?

This makes sense and i think overtime it will happen. She is doing sessions with Tchalla, and it was stated that she is finding more equilibrium. Also her vocabulary has been improving from earlier issues to now, as has her understanding which was evident by her conversation with Freiya. Jen hasn't fully embraced this version of herself until this issue and i think from there it will only improve.

[InformationGeek]

You may want to go and reread it. She begins to turn when she is being sexualised and then convinces herself not to. Clearly this means more now. It certainly means this was at the core of her characterisation on day one and so this isn't a reactive issue it is a thematic one. I suggest it is you who may perhaps be being reactive.

I'm not following you at all with this. How does that relate to the themes of this issue at all? She was being harassed by guys when she was a HUMAN. This issue was about her experience as She-HULK. The themeing doesn't work as well.

I'm looking at the page now. Here's the page too!



What am I missing here? It doesn't work as well if she's not She-Hulk. It just comes across as a creepy guy hitting on a normal woman instead of what She-Hulk was describing in this issue.

[Jabare]

Aaron went out of his way and made the Avengers interesting again for the first time in a while. The first arc was kind of so-so, but atert hat he really hit the ground running and added some nice elements to the Avengers mythos.


The base in the body of the Celestial. The Tussian superhero team. The U.S. with Coulson. Bringing back Dracula and Vampires and making them more relevant then they've been in years. Blade. Heck even this War of Realms event was pretty decent as far as events go. Very accesible book. Gave She-Hulk a prominent arc in the Avengers title, something she hasn't had forever. Despite people gripping about She-Hulks changes Marvel's done a good job building up the arc so far. I'm interested to see where this goes.

I'm very interested to see what the deal was with Namor and Dracula.


Bendis is probably the last Avengers run where we've had this type of impact. Hickman left his marl on Avengers but it was very different. Unlike Bendis, Aaron isn't really taking people OOC. People might complain about Thor but if anything he's brought him a little more in line with Hemsworth, but still keeping him Thor as seen by the War of Realms event. She-Hulk is once again going through an arc. Every other Avengers member is on point. Namor is going through some arc. Blade is just using the most popular charicterizaiton along with highlighting his supernatural powers.

[XPac]

Aaron went out of his way and made the Avengers interesting again for the first time in a while. The first arc was kind of so-so, but atert hat he really hit the ground running and added some nice elements to the Avengers mythos.


The base in the body of the Celestial. The Tussian superhero team. The U.S. with Coulson. Bringing back Dracula and Vampires and making them more relevant then they've been in years. Blade. Heck even this War of Realms event was pretty decent as far as events go. Very accesible book. Gave She-Hulk a prominent arc in the Avengers title, something she hasn't had forever. Despite people gripping about She-Hulks changes Marvel's done a good job building up the arc so far. I'm interested to see where this goes.

I'm very interested to see what the deal was with Namor and Dracula.


Bendis is probably the last Avengers run where we've had this type of impact. Hickman left his marl on Avengers but it was very different

I think Aarons run almost feels like a sort of weird hybrid of Bendis and Hickman. If you mixed their runs in a blender, you'd have Aarons.

But I think it's overall a fun run. It definately feels like it matters... which is what we sort of lacked after Hickmans run. Everything almost felt like filler between Secret Wars until Aaron picked up the ball and ran with it. No offense to Waid... his book was good enough, but it didn't feel like a real Avengers book should feel for whatever reason.

[Prof. Warren]

How is that so? Jen's statements about being ogled are out of character. Old Jen was proactive about the attantion she got, and if someone were to grab her or pinch her, she would've ended them. This Jen saying that is harder than being ugly or being Savage Hulk doesn't jibe with what's come before

That's not what's being said in this issue. Some people are grossly oversimplifying or exaggerating Jen's position.

She isn't saying that being attractive was "harder" than being ugly or savage. She says that there were negative aspects to the way she was perceived and regarded that Bruce was oblivious to. To say that the sexual harassment she endured was no big deal and that it didn't matter because she knew how to handle it is the kind of thing that men say to women all the time in order to diminish and belittle their suffering.

It seems like many of the complaints about this issue only confirm the points that Aaron is making.

[Prof. Warren]

I'm not following you at all with this. How does that relate to the themes of this issue at all? She was being harassed by guys when she was a HUMAN. This issue was about her experience as She-HULK. The themeing doesn't work as well.

I'm looking at the page now. Here's the page too!



What am I missing here? It doesn't work as well if she's not She-Hulk. It just comes across as a creepy guy hitting on a normal woman instead of what She-Hulk was describing in this issue.

So it doesn't affect Jen if she's harassed in a form that isn't She-Hulk? It's ok if it's a creepy guy hitting on a normal woman? Come on.

The point is, her previous form as She-Hulk was an attractive one. The (unwanted) attention she received was based on her desirability.

This scene shows that Aaron has had his plans for Jen in mind from the start.