Avengers 20, we are at peak Aaron people!

[Subzero89]

Pay no attention what the writer wrote, except if you want to praise it.

Don't take the writers words and actions literally, let ME explain to you what the writer actually meant.

[Ultimate Captain America]

She-Hulk says that, in her old self, the villains would flirt with her and crack jokes about her even while she takes them down, but now nobody's laughing. Written by the same guy that wrote this:

[Electricmastro]

She-Hulk says that, in her old self, the villains would flirt with her and crack jokes about her even while she takes them down, but now nobody's laughing. Written by the same guy that wrote this:

[InformationGeek]

She-Hulk says that, in her old self, the villains would flirt with her and crack jokes about her even while she takes them down, but now nobody's laughing. Written by the same guy that wrote this:

I wish I knew about that panel for my article on this issue. Dang it...

[KangMiRae]

She-Hulk says that, in her old self, the villains would flirt with her and crack jokes about her even while she takes them down, but now nobody's laughing. Written by the same guy that wrote this:

Whoops! Fumble, Mr Aaron! :P

[Thor-Ul]

I think you know what I mean. The danger is that we project our own bias onto writers. Either positively or negatively. If we are angry with a writer it is easy to cast him or her as the villain.

But as you said later, nobody can't do that. You either will have positive or negative bias. It can be argumented than you have a positive bias because is something being published by your favorite editorial and cast everyone who disagree.

Fan criticism makes very little attempt at objectivity or even balance. There is a concerted effort to prove things fans dislike are invalid. This is a well documented phenomenon seen all over fandom in the last few years.

We used to say ‘don’t like it don’t read it’. We still should but that isn’t the maxim we live by anymore. Now it is ‘don’t like it attack it by any means fair or foul’.

Want to prove what the writer is doing? Analyse and read without bias. I don’t see much of that here.

Fan criticism is born from emotion. Of course can't be objetive. A casual reader can be more objetive but also more indifferent to what a fan likes.
There is a difference between casual reader and the Fan: reader came with little or no baggage and can have a more cold, open perspective of what could receive; fan come with expectatives and a previous knowledge of the characters and have feelings for them, so they are expecting coherence to their development. But both want to be conmoved, to have certain emotions awakened and satisfied. A casual reader could like this version of She-Hulk, but for the fan who followed the Sensacional She-Hulk, this "Brucette" is not the character they had been following, the one who they loved.
On the other hand, even if we left out any bias, we must admit than we are not talking about a deep work for school analysis, we are reading something than we are supposedly to enjoy. Any message, aftertought, subtext, is something added to a product which his expected objetive is to entertain. If most people didn't enjoy it, then the story did not fulfill its prime function. But I concede than if Aaron wanted to trigger some reaction (either negative or positive), he did a good job.

I took the time to put down how I read the text. Not saying I am unbiased but I would have thought any debate would focus on that. There is actually scope for a functional debate here. One that could actually tease out what this issue says to us. There have been some very functional debates on these forums, and I am here to have those. Anything other than the same old ‘this is not valid and I have the authority as a fan to declare it so’. Marvel are the only people that get to decide that.

And the fans have the right to declare their dissatisfaction. Here are emotions and feelings at play. Fans jump the gun at this situations, and thatis the objetive of these stories.
Maybe Aaron is playing with this concept too, making people feel outraged with this She-Hulk, only to bring back the Sensational version later and make people miss her. It is better when an issue make you feel angry than when an issue don't make you fell nothing.

Or maybe Aaron was just making fun of fans who don't accept his version of She-Hulk. It would not be the first time he use characters incongruently to rebut critics. It was not the first one (Ditko did it too), it will be not the last one.

[JKtheMac]

But as you said later, nobody can't do that. You either will have positive or negative bias. It can be argumented than you have a positive bias because is something being published by your favorite editorial and cast everyone who disagree.

There is a huge difference between projecting your biases onto a writer and claiming you know how he thinks, and being biased towards a subject matter, or an approach to writing. It is also a good idea to be aware of ones bias or to acknowledge them rather than vehemently claiming the writer is being somehow objectively terrible when it may just be ones own perception.

The classic example with Arron is assuming he is ‘pushing’ specific agendas and thereby assuming that means his motives and his outlook on the issues are clear cut and diametrically opposed to the reviewer. Then when anyone points out there is a possibility that this is actually an extreme way to view the text, and that there are other things in the text that suggest a much more moderate viewpoint or an honest exploration of the wider issues it becomes a war of ‘just opinion’ rather than actually engaging with another viewpoint.

So to clarify. We don’t all ‘Project’ some of us take time to go back and reread things with an eye to detail and any nuances in the text, and consider how various things either support or undermine our own reading of the text. Also I am not criticising the passion of fandom. I am a passionate fan that very often doesn’t like things done with my favourite properties. I don’t spend time attacking those responsible or assigning motives to them. I recognise I am not a mind reader and base my points on what is actually on the page. Sometimes that involves elaborate extrapolation and fan theorising but I own those as theories or readings not assertions of truth.

[UltimateTy]

I thought this was a solid issue

[GrandEleven]

Tried to read this whole thread. Couldn't do it. Honestly I think you guys are going way WAY deeper on this topic than needed ... like "jet fuel can't melt steel beams" level nonsense.

Here's a much more plausible reality IMO:
1. Aaron and Ewing are chatting ... and Ewing is sharing his bat-sh*t crazy Hulk plans for his new run.
2. Aaron thinks they're great, but honestly leave Hulk in a very "anti-team" state, and he'd like to have a more "traditional" hulk on the team anyways, so he grabs Jen.
3. As Aaron is clearly passionate about a dynamic he feels is missing in modern comics, he does some research and comes up with a story that will allow him to both keep Jen in the state he wants for the team as well as be the foil to message/idea he wants to share.

That's it. There's no malice behind it. No special agenda. Aaron needed a certain kind of Hulk and Jen was perfect as she also allowed him to write about a female character in a way he's passionate about. Those who hated Jane-Thor probably hate this hulk, those who didn't mind her are probably fine with this Hulk.

I personally loved the Mighty Thor run. It had its moments where it got a bit preachy, but every comic run does and has sense the Stan Lee days. Mighty Thor was fantastic in both story and art for me. A great ride. This Hulk ... has not been my cup of tea, but mostly because I am much more drawn to Ewing's hulk right now. So you know what? I stopped picking it up and moved on. Jen was no more "assassinated" than any hero is when they get written by someone new. Or maybe I got tempered by Bendis...

[Dreaded Porcupine]

Whoops! Fumble, Mr Aaron! :P

LMAO! That’s a fumble at the goal line recovered by the other team.

[Anthony W]

LMAO! That’s a fumble at the goal line recovered by the other team.

I want to say it's a "Pick 6", an interception returned for a touchdown, but this was so bad it's more like a field goal that somehow gets returned for a touchdown.

[kilderkin]

As I had ordered it I gave it a read,

Its done nothing to change my mind about dropping the title as a pull title

There are so many swipes at different consumers opinions here I found it rather pathetic

Irrespective of any very important real world issues it tried to addressed it came across as a rather childish retort

Imo very poorly written and in glad I'm dropping this now, I'm certainly not paying for any writer to use their position to take pop shots at criticism in the veil of story instead of actually producing a good story, which for me this was not

The morality behind the idea was sound, but this came across as a childish mini tantrum to me

[KangMiRae]

As I had ordered it I gave it a read,

Its done nothing to change my mind about dropping the title as a pull title

There are so many swipes at different consumers opinions here I found it rather pathetic

Irrespective of any very important real world issues it tried to addressed it came across as a rather childish retort

Imo very poorly written and in glad I'm dropping this now, I'm certainly not paying for any writer to use their position to take pop shots at criticism in the veil of story instead of actually producing a good story, which for me this was not

The morality behind the idea was sound, but this came across as a childish mini tantrum to me

I said it before, I'll say it again, it's tacky and pathetic when any writer does it. The worst part is that Aaron wasn't even capable of making She-Hulk just break the fourth wall like she always used to do to make the joke herself. I guess he and Marvel forgot that along the way. Now we're stuck with the Cringepools. :Puke:

[Dreaded Porcupine]

I want to say it's a "Pick 6", an interception returned for a touchdown, but this was so bad it's more like a field goal that somehow gets returned for a touchdown.

I just want to see how the Squadron pans out. Hopefully Aaron writes them well. Mark Gruenwald’s Squadron is still one of my favorite arcs of all time.

[Gaastra]

Its done nothing to change my mind about dropping the title as a pull title

Yup i'm done with the title as well. I love avengers but won't give them my money anymore for now.