Avengers 20, we are at peak Aaron people!

[Subzero89]

When you said that Bruce had never gone through anything Jen hadn't.

That's not what i said at all and i am still waiting for you to quote me where i said sexual harassment and rape are the same thing.

[Subzero89]

It's also very telling that you are dismissing an example of actual rape as being less bad than chronic groping and catcalls.
Both are horrible, but I'm guessing that when asked most people and especially victims of such acts wouldn't call an isolated instance of rape to be the lesser of these two evils.

I am actually appalled by this person. Several people have pointed out to him several instances of Hulk/Banner getting raped, almost raped, and sexually harassed and he keeps handwaving it all away.

All of this is extremely telling.

[Prof. Warren]

It's also very telling that you are dismissing an example of actual rape as being less bad than chronic groping and catcalls.
Both are horrible, but I'm guessing that when asked most people and especially victims of such acts wouldn't call an isolated instance of rape to be the lesser of these two evils.

Where did I say "less bad?" And where I dismiss rape in any way? Nowhere.

I'm saying that one doesn't trump the trauma of the other.

When people provide examples of situations that Bruce has experienced, it seems to be to offer "proof" that Jen has no room to complain, that Bruce's trauma is valid whereas Jen's really isn't. That is a common scenario when dealing with sexual harassment. Unless it rises to the level of actual rape, there's a dismissive attitude that it's something the victim should just "get over" or they should "know how to handle it."

[Prof. Warren]

I am actually appalled by this person. Several people have pointed out to him several instances of Hulk/Banner getting raped, almost raped, and sexually harassed and he keeps handwaving it all away.

I'm saying that trying to get into a greater than/less than discussion about sexual assault and harassment is wrong.

Instead of accepting that this is a story about one woman's point of view about harassment, a lot of men (and let's face it, it's all men) want to immediately play a trump card and point to things that have happened to Bruce as if it will automatically invalidate Jen's experiences if they can prove he's gone through worse. They don't want to hear what a woman has to say, which is something that is seen in real life all the time. Her suffering is fake, her experience is not really traumatic, and it's something that she should know how to deal with.

When someone speaks about their experience with sexual assault or harassment, the reaction should never be to be to respond by telling that person about people who have had it much worse. That would be an incredibly wrong thing to do. And yet that's definitely the reaction some readers are having with this issue.

[Prof. Warren]

Or correctly understanding how a character was being written at the time, and correctly understanding how those events are now being reinterpreted to afford the new direction the current writer wants them to be seen

Which is what I think is the case here

It's totally in the writers role to do that, but it doesn't mean we don't spot it

Who's to say who's understanding it "correctly?"

Also, who's "we?"

Just because a bunch of fans don't like the direction a writer is taking a character doesn't mean that they're right about anything.

Or wrong, for that matter.

It means they have an opinion.

Aaron has obviously read Jen's previous stories and felt there was an aspect to her character that could be explored and addressed.

Some fans will like it, some won't.

[Anthony W]

No, I just find it endlessly amusing when a guy who complains about "faux wokeness" and has the dog from Family Guy as his avatar thinks he can coach professional writers and editors on their jobs.

Cool, cool. You know what I find amusing? You defending this story. Keep on dancing kiddo

[Subzero89]

I'm saying that trying to get into a greater than/less than discussion about sexual assault and harassment is wrong.

Instead of accepting that this is a story about one woman's point of view about harassment, a lot of men (and let's face it, it's all men) want to immediately play a trump card and point to things that have happened to Bruce as if it will automatically invalidate Jen's experiences if they can prove he's gone through worse. They don't want to hear what a woman has to say, which is something that is seen in real life all the time. Her suffering is fake, her experience is not really traumatic, and it's something that she should know how to deal with.

When someone speaks about their experience with sexual assault or harassment, the reaction should never be to be to respond by telling that person about people who have had it much worse. That would be an incredibly wrong thing to do. And yet that's definitely the reaction some readers are having with this issue.

Not a single person here pointed to Bruce's experiences as a way to negate Jen's, if someone did point them out to me so i can call them out, also YOU were the one specifically asking for examples of Banner/Hulk experiencing rape and such things.

This is why i hate this whole nonsense, this is why Aaron is such a shitty writer. Jen and Bruce would never compare their bad experiences to one another, they wouldn't turn it into some kind of a sick competition, they would know that each has had different experiences being the Hulk and that's it. They would find comfort and solidarity into one another not beat themselves over the head on who got groped as an Avenger more, this whole thing is so stupid.

And it's no surprise that it comes from the same man that had Red She Hulk and Hulk have sex in the MIDDLE OF THE STREET for 2 hours, solely because Betty wanted to get back at Bruce and was hoping he was watching her have sex with Hulk so he would feel jealous... like 12 year old horny boys wouldn't come up with nonsense this stupid.

And finally i am still appalled at your overall reaction. YOU wanted to turn this into a competition btw, you wanted to show that Jen experience worse crap and were so sure of it you asked others to show you examples of Bruce/Hulk being raped and whatnot and when you actually got it, something you didn't actually expect to see, suddenly you are singing a different tune. Now it's NOT about dismissing each others bad experiences, it doesn't matter who got raped or not, what's important is that Jen gets groped all the time and cat called, according to Aaron.

[Agent Z]

That's not what i said at all and i am still waiting for you to quote me where i said sexual harassment and rape are the same thing.

Right here.

Nice moving of the goal post, YES in fact forgive me for i forgot for a second, Hulk was actually raped by Umar 2 times as he was mind-controlled to have sex with her. And one time was used by Red She Hulk who forced sex on him in the middle of a street so they were both being watched, just to get back at Banner(oh and it lasted for 2 hours because that's also told to us), which ironically happened under which perverted writer you may ask? The one and only Jason Aaron. Who knew Aaron was that kinky.

Yes, in general women have it worse but one of Aarons points was that She-Hulk apparently experienced something that Banner didn't, which is entirely untrue as I've shown.

[Subzero89]

Right here.

Again where have i equated sexual harassment with rape? You are projecting here. Banner has experienced sexual harassment, attempted rape and actual rape, Jen hasn't experienced all of these but somehow that means i said sexual harassment and rape are the same thing?

[Prof. Warren]

Considering I don't think Aaron really understands She-Hulk's character that well (or if he does, very inconsistently and surface-level), then I hope another writer gets more creative control over She-Hulk soon...

On the contrary, it seems like a lot of fans want to stick to a surface level view of Jen. She's happy and fun-loving and everyone knows it. Aaron is saying it's not as simple as that.

I don't think the issue so much is her complaining but the fact that she's trying to equivocate it to what Bruce has to go through.

But she isn't. She is saying that even though it may look like her life as a Hulk has always been a breeze that it really hasn't and that there's been negative aspects to it that she hasn't openly discussed. She tells Bruce about the everyday indignities towards women that men never really consider. Telling Bruce that being a "big scary monster didn't seem so bad to me sometimes" isn't a dismissal of what he's gone through. It's just a way of saying that just as he said sometimes he's envious of her that she's felt the same way towards him sometimes.

She refers to Bruce as an "immortal horror-show" so she clearly understands that he's got his own sh*t to deal with and isn't looking to trade places.

Is what Jen has to go through awful, demeaning, and completely wrong? Yes. But as She-Hulk she's demonstrated a level of control and ability to respond to it in a way Bruce never has been able to with his issues because she's in control and able to live out her life as a strong, confident, woman no matter what gets thrown at her. She has every right to complain but they aren't equivalent circumstances in my opinion.

Again, she never says anything about them being "equivalent." That is only what a lot of defensive dudes are reading into it.

[Nazrel]

Again, she never says anything about them being "equivalent." That is only what a lot of defensive dudes are reading into it.

As a point of reference, identify what you view as the worst element of this series, and Jason Aarons writing as a whole.

[Prof. Warren]

Not a single person here pointed to Bruce's experiences as a way to negate Jen's, if someone did point them out to me so i can call them out, also YOU were the one specifically asking for examples of Banner/Hulk experiencing rape and such things.

When people bring up examples of worse things happening to Bruce, that is explicitly a way of dismissing Jen's issues.

This is why i hate this whole nonsense, this is why Aaron is such a shitty writer. Jen and Bruce would never compare their bad experiences to one another, they wouldn't turn it into some kind of a sick competition, they would know that each has had different experiences being the Hulk and that's it. They would find comfort and solidarity into one another not beat themselves over the head on who got groped as an Avenger more, this whole thing is so stupid.

They didn't turn it into a "sick competition." They talked about their mutual experiences. And in the end, they were fine. It's not like they have a lot of other Hulks to talk to.

It's fans who are trying to play it as a competition by saying that Jen is not understanding how bad Bruce has it. But she does. She only wanted Bruce to understand that being the "sexy Hulk" was not the picnic that everyone assumes it to be.

And finally i am still appalled at your overall reaction. YOU wanted to turn this into a competition btw, you wanted to show that Jen experience worse crap and were so sure of it you asked others to show you examples of Bruce/Hulk being raped and whatnot and when you actually got it, something you didn't actually expect to see, suddenly you are singing a different tune. Now it's NOT about dismissing each others bad experiences, it doesn't matter who got raped or not, what's important is that Jen gets groped all the time and cat called, according to Aaron.

I never wanted to show that Jen "experienced worse crap." I just find it ridiculous that the response to this is to try and find examples of Bruce having his own sexual trauma.

We could go through the specific examples of Bruce's experiences and discuss how they differ from what Jen's talking about but what would be the point?

[Prof. Warren]

As a point of reference, identify what you view as the worst element of this series, and Jason Aarons writing as a whole.

I'll pass, thanks.

You'll just have to contend with my opinions as I give them without a point of reference to guide you.

...Although I will say the only thing Aaron's done that I've actually disliked has been his Doctor Strange run.

[Nazrel]

I'll pass, thanks.

You'll just have to contend with my opinions as I give them without a point of reference to guide you.

Thank you for refusing to indulge in any level of critical analysis of a work you enjoy. This is entirely in line with my expectations of you, and my perception of the underling motivation of every single thing you ever say.

[Subzero89]

When people bring up examples of worse things happening to Bruce, that is explicitly a way of dismissing Jen's issues.

Reminder

Was the Hulk himself ever almost raped?

Probably not.

While sexual harassment can happen to anyone, I think it'd be a lot harder to make a case that Bruce experienced the kind of chronic abuse that Jen - or any woman - would encounter on a daily basis.

You are a disingenuous person and i have nothing else to say to you.