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  1. #1
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Default Avengers 20, we are at peak Aaron people!

    Oh my God this issue is terrible. Have you ever read something so bad you aren't even disappointed, you just become fascinated at how bad it is?

    This. Is. That. Issue.

    I want to describe it but nothing I can say will do it "justice"

    Remember when Titania let Jane Foster win because they were both women?

    Take that and power it up a thousand times and you have this.

    It's so bad that I had to turn back to the start of the book to see who was the editor who let this happen. This is what I saw..
    Assistant Editor: Shannon Andrews
    Associate Editor: Alanna Smith
    Editor: Tom Brevoort

    This book made it past not one, not two, but there editors.
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  2. #2
    Mighty Member GodThor's Avatar
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    Pretty much every chapter of Thor... oh sorry, Odinson because only hammer makes him Thor, is bad.

    I told you guys Aaron ruins everything he touches.

  3. #3
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodThor View Post
    Pretty much every chapter of Thor... oh sorry, Odinson because only hammer makes him Thor, is bad.

    I told you guys Aaron ruins everything he touches.
    It's obvious that Aaron is doubling down amid all the criticism and knows that his take on She-Hulk is never going to be as beloved. This issue is just one long tantrum trying to pass itself off as woke.
    Last edited by Anthony W; 06-26-2019 at 08:25 PM.
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  4. #4
    Astonishing Member jwatson's Avatar
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    I actually enjoyed it and love that Jen embraced her new look. Her powers is gamma radiated strength among other things. There is nothing beautiful about radiation and Aaron explained very well why She Hulk enjoys how she looks now and in depth. Jen still looks like Jenn so if she wants to look normal she just powers down. I'm glad she doesn't have to look like green T & A for folks to wank at. She still feels like she hulk to me but everyone else is now on notice. She doesn't have to joke to hid the insults and pain like so many heros do. Kudos Aaron.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  5. #5
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    I actually enjoyed it and love that Jen embraced her new look. Her powers is gamma radiated strength among other things. There is nothing beautiful about radiation and Aaron explained very well why She Hulk enjoys how she looks now and in depth. Jen still looks like Jenn so if she wants to look normal she just powers down. I'm glad she doesn't have to look like green T & A for folks to wank at. She still feels like she hulk to me but everyone else is now on notice. She doesn't have to joke to hid the insults and pain like so many heros do. Kudos Aaron.
    No, no he didn't explain imho. He just built a strawman, then had the audacity to try to say that Bruce Banner had it easy because the papparzzi never followed him around.

    Nah, it's bad imho.
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  6. #6
    Astonishing Member jwatson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    No, no he didn't explain imho. He just built a strawman, then had the audacity to try to say that Bruce Banner had it easy because the papparzzi never followed him around.

    Nah, it's bad imho.
    I'm going to respect She Hulk's me too movement. People were making pin ups of her. She was laughed at many times as the lesser Hulk. writers did have villians flirting with her instead of taking her seriously. And as seen by the court room scene in her mind all of her persona's exist but in this era of Time's Up this is the one she feels most comfortable in. Time is up on thinking Jen is just some bombshell hulk who is not to be taken seriously. Now she will be taken as seriously in battles as she is in the court room. I'm here for it while it lasts and to me it was explained greatly. How many men are like oh women don't have to suffer cause their cute and people like them and they should be happy that they are seen that way. It wasn't Bruce's place to tell Jenn how she should or shouldn't feel because he wanted an outlet to complain about his own transformations.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  7. #7
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    I'm going to respect She Hulk's me too movement. People were making pin ups of her.
    Which is happening to famous people right now which means it was ahead of its time.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    She was laughed at many times as the lesser Hulk. writers did have villians flirting with her instead of taking her seriously.
    You mean like how Ulik asked her to marry him? Kind of weird that Aaron is doing the same thing he is accusing others of. It's almost like he is using a movement as a cover to whine and throw tantrums...oh wait he is.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    And as seen by the court room scene in her mind all of her persona's exist but in this era of Time's Up this is the one she feels most comfortable in. Time is up on thinking Jen is just some bombshell hulk who is not to be taken seriously.
    Nope,I think ruined up on Jen being her own unique character but instead a whiney copy of the Hulk that villains STILL make passes at as she takes them out.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    Now she will be taken as seriously in battles as she is in the court room.
    I take it you missed the fight with Ulik? The one where he asked her to marry him?

    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    I'm here for it while it lasts and to me it was explained greatly. How many men are like oh women don't have to suffer cause their cute and people like them and they should be happy that they are seen that way. It wasn't Bruce's place to tell Jenn how she should or shouldn't feel because he wanted an outlet to complain about his own transformations.
    We are talking about Jen in particular, having a conversation that NEVER HAPPENED in a comic. It's just Aaron handwaving away his bad writing and hoping people buy into his faux woke act.
    Last edited by Anthony W; 06-26-2019 at 09:16 PM.
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  8. #8
    Fantastic Member Flashback's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    I'm going to respect She Hulk's me too movement. People were making pin ups of her. She was laughed at many times as the lesser Hulk. writers did have villians flirting with her instead of taking her seriously. And as seen by the court room scene in her mind all of her persona's exist but in this era of Time's Up this is the one she feels most comfortable in. Time is up on thinking Jen is just some bombshell hulk who is not to be taken seriously. Now she will be taken as seriously in battles as she is in the court room. I'm here for it while it lasts and to me it was explained greatly. How many men are like oh women don't have to suffer cause their cute and people like them and they should be happy that they are seen that way. It wasn't Bruce's place to tell Jenn how she should or shouldn't feel because he wanted an outlet to complain about his own transformations.
    Yep, I just read it. I interpreted the line where she said:

    "I told him...looking like a big scary monster didn't sound so bad to me sometimes"

    to mean exactly what you said.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    I'm going to respect She Hulk's me too movement. People were making pin ups of her. She was laughed at many times as the lesser Hulk. writers did have villians flirting with her instead of taking her seriously. And as seen by the court room scene in her mind all of her persona's exist but in this era of Time's Up this is the one she feels most comfortable in. Time is up on thinking Jen is just some bombshell hulk who is not to be taken seriously. Now she will be taken as seriously in battles as she is in the court room. I'm here for it while it lasts and to me it was explained greatly. How many men are like oh women don't have to suffer cause their cute and people like them and they should be happy that they are seen that way. It wasn't Bruce's place to tell Jenn how she should or shouldn't feel because he wanted an outlet to complain about his own transformations.
    I simply refuse to believe that Jennifer Could PPOSSIBLY niece that being oggled by fanboys and used as a pinup could I'm any way compare to the shitstorm that is the life of Bruce Banner.

    Further... Jen was the one who enjoyed being a seven foot Green goddess who could get with Hercules.

    If your going g to write her as havibg second thoughts B
    about how she actively portrayed herself fine... and I suppose that was the point of the court room scene... But it needed more reflection through the inner monologue
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    I actually enjoyed it and love that Jen embraced her new look. Her powers is gamma radiated strength among other things. There is nothing beautiful about radiation and Aaron explained very well why She Hulk enjoys how she looks now and in depth. Jen still looks like Jenn so if she wants to look normal she just powers down. I'm glad she doesn't have to look like green T & A for folks to wank at. She still feels like she hulk to me but everyone else is now on notice. She doesn't have to joke to hid the insults and pain like so many heros do. Kudos Aaron.
    Yes, this was my feelings as well. I thought it was a strong issue and I really liked Aaron's take on Jen and I'm glad he had the space to explore it.

    He laid out Jen's state of mind in a compelling way and I appreciated the commentary on Jen always having to be the "sexy" Hulk in order to be more palatable.

    As for those who didn't like it, oh well. Somehow Aaron has managed to craft a classic Thor run even while some fans insist that he's "ruined" the character. I think his treatment of Jen will survive similar criticism.

  11. #11
    Welcome Back Spidey Kurolegacy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    I actually enjoyed it and love that Jen embraced her new look. Her powers is gamma radiated strength among other things. There is nothing beautiful about radiation and Aaron explained very well why She Hulk enjoys how she looks now and in depth. Jen still looks like Jenn so if she wants to look normal she just powers down. I'm glad she doesn't have to look like green T & A for folks to wank at. She still feels like she hulk to me but everyone else is now on notice. She doesn't have to joke to hid the insults and pain like so many heros do. Kudos Aaron.
    To literally just dilute everything that She-Hulk has been in her entire history to just being T & A is an insult to her as a character and displays blatant lack of the most basic understanding of who she is as a character. She-Hulk is a character who is a strong female character about female empowerment in a way that has quite a bit of depth especially compared to the ‘shout it from the mountaintops, subtle as a Hulk fist’ female empowerment that we get today. This is a character who is comfortable in her own skin even as a Hulk to the degree that she willingly remains as such most of the time and is no more a threat for it. She has the very thing that even the OG Hulk lacks in control. What Jen bares for the world that you call just T & A is what she chooses to bare rather than being restricted simply because she’s a woman. Hell even when it comes to fanservice with the character is blatant tongue-in-cheek, not something that detracts from her character. And as she was before Aaron came along was a lot of things, an Avenger, a member of the F4 so well trusted that Ben trusted her multiple times to stand in for him on the team in his stead, a respected lawyer, as well as the leader of A-Force. She was a fun character but in no way was she a joke. She was a character with depth and Aaron showed both in this issue and in this run that he doesn’t have even the most basic of grasp for the character especially to reduce her to nothing but the dumb muscle of the team. That isn’t empowerment, that is regressive especially for such a strong female character.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurolegacy View Post
    To literally just dilute everything that She-Hulk has been in her entire history to just being T & A is an insult to her as a character and displays blatant lack of the most basic understanding of who she is as a character. She-Hulk is a character who is a strong female character about female empowerment in a way that has quite a bit of depth especially compared to the ‘shout it from the mountaintops, subtle as a Hulk fist’ female empowerment that we get today. This is a character who is comfortable in her own skin even as a Hulk to the degree that she willingly remains as such most of the time and is no more a threat for it. She has the very thing that even the OG Hulk lacks in control. What Jen bares for the world that you call just T & A is what she chooses to bare rather than being restricted simply because she’s a woman. Hell even when it comes to fanservice with the character is blatant tongue-in-cheek, not something that detracts from her character. And as she was before Aaron came along was a lot of things, an Avenger, a member of the F4 so well trusted that Ben trusted her multiple times to stand in for him on the team in his stead, a respected lawyer, as well as the leader of A-Force. She was a fun character but in no way was she a joke. She was a character with depth and Aaron showed both in this issue and in this run that he doesn’t have even the most basic of grasp for the character especially to reduce her to nothing but the dumb muscle of the team. That isn’t empowerment, that is regressive especially for such a strong female character.
    No.

    Aaron isn't saying she was a joke before but he is noting that she was viewed in a sexualized manner.

    And that's absolutely true. A lot of that is due, surely, to what readers of the time would accept in a female hero.

    She couldn't be the rage fueled, overly muscled, monstrous Hulk. She had to be funny, cute, non-threatening.

    I like that Aaron is confronting that and questioning it.

    It may have been "tongue in cheek" to portray Jen as pin-up material but yet it was still there and there's still a blatant sexism to it.

    I expect that Jen will, at some point, go back to the more classic version of herself but in the meantime I like this journey that Aaron has her on.

  13. #13
    Incredible Member Skedatz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurolegacy View Post
    To literally just dilute everything that She-Hulk has been in her entire history to just being T & A is an insult to her as a character and displays blatant lack of the most basic understanding of who she is as a character. She-Hulk is a character who is a strong female character about female empowerment in a way that has quite a bit of depth especially compared to the ‘shout it from the mountaintops, subtle as a Hulk fist’ female empowerment that we get today. This is a character who is comfortable in her own skin even as a Hulk to the degree that she willingly remains as such most of the time and is no more a threat for it. She has the very thing that even the OG Hulk lacks in control. What Jen bares for the world that you call just T & A is what she chooses to bare rather than being restricted simply because she’s a woman. Hell even when it comes to fanservice with the character is blatant tongue-in-cheek, not something that detracts from her character. And as she was before Aaron came along was a lot of things, an Avenger, a member of the F4 so well trusted that Ben trusted her multiple times to stand in for him on the team in his stead, a respected lawyer, as well as the leader of A-Force. She was a fun character but in no way was she a joke. She was a character with depth and Aaron showed both in this issue and in this run that he doesn’t have even the most basic of grasp for the character especially to reduce her to nothing but the dumb muscle of the team. That isn’t empowerment, that is regressive especially for such a strong female character.
    Her history and what she was known for are two different things.

    When people complain about the new She-Hulk, they aren't talking about her learning the lessons between her duel identities or how they're sad she lost her capacity to be a lawyer for a while. The complaints were only about her physical representation and their enjoyment of that. So it's not like Jen's complaints in this issue came from nowhere. It would be hard to say the general public in a world inundated with superheroes would behave any differently than the devoted fans of comics today.

  14. #14
    Mighty Member Hulkout42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurolegacy View Post
    To literally just dilute everything that She-Hulk has been in her entire history to just being T & A is an insult to her as a character and displays blatant lack of the most basic understanding of who she is as a character. She-Hulk is a character who is a strong female character about female empowerment in a way that has quite a bit of depth especially compared to the ‘shout it from the mountaintops, subtle as a Hulk fist’ female empowerment that we get today. This is a character who is comfortable in her own skin even as a Hulk to the degree that she willingly remains as such most of the time and is no more a threat for it. She has the very thing that even the OG Hulk lacks in control. What Jen bares for the world that you call just T & A is what she chooses to bare rather than being restricted simply because she’s a woman. Hell even when it comes to fanservice with the character is blatant tongue-in-cheek, not something that detracts from her character. And as she was before Aaron came along was a lot of things, an Avenger, a member of the F4 so well trusted that Ben trusted her multiple times to stand in for him on the team in his stead, a respected lawyer, as well as the leader of A-Force. She was a fun character but in no way was she a joke. She was a character with depth and Aaron showed both in this issue and in this run that he doesn’t have even the most basic of grasp for the character especially to reduce her to nothing but the dumb muscle of the team. That isn’t empowerment, that is regressive especially for such a strong female character.
    Well said, heck i miss the Slott run where she was a good balance of both Jennifer Walters and She-Hulk...which is big for me because i hate Slott!
    This post CWII versio we have just doesn't have that, not in my eyes at least.

  15. #15
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    ...Thumbs up for the teases of things to come here.

    Stoked for the Hell Race (obviously connected to the Challenge of the Ghost Riders)

    The Drawing of the Heralds

    The Sea Trials (surely the culmination of the Namor storyline)

    And, most of all, The Fury of Khonshu. Can't wait to see Moon Knight getting some big Avengers love.

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