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  1. #436
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    I mean, it makes sense to me that if Thor doesn't think he can lift the hammer, then he can't lift the hammer.

  2. #437
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    That's not something we didn't know before. That's something we were told that doesn't make sense.

    You can't lift the hammer if you're not worthy. Thor has been, for most of his history, worthy enough to lift the hammer. Saying he's not worthy enough to do something he's already done doesn't make a lot of sense. You might as well come out and say Captain America has never worn a patriotic costume or that Wolverine has never killed anybody.

    It's happened.
    Apparently you can lift the hammer if you are not worthy. Go figure. It is enough to try. Thor clearly stands as the god of trying to be better. Striving. Wanting to make the world a better place through example and through conviction. He was before and he is now. Perhaps we will get more exploration on this but I am not sure if we need it. What more do we need to know? Jane lifted it apparently because she was also striving to make the world a better place through conviction that the example of Thor was necessary. Sounds logical to me.

    Clearly there is more to tell about what happened when Odin was wielding it, but there was no enchantment back then that we are aware of aside from a binding enchantment.

    I mean this is a change but it’s subtle. It is less cosy perhaps. Maybe more messianic.

    Anyway, this is nothing to do with Avengers #20.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 07-02-2019 at 04:20 PM.

  3. #438
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    I mean, it makes sense to me that if Thor doesn't think he can lift the hammer, then he can't lift the hammer.
    Now that's a different point, and I do see this as reasonable

    If it was a confidence trick that would to an extent make sense and at least could work in a way

    But the creative presented it as fact that he isn't worthy, that no god is, that this was irrifutable and true

    And always was

    But it's not the case

    It is reasonable to suggest Thor's confidence was shuck by the power of the watcher, but that isn't really what they tried to show

  4. #439
    Astonishing Member protege's Avatar
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    I have to admit, i’m Thoroughly baffled by what’s been going on with she hulk as of late; I the whole ptsd that triggered her mutation into the current character, and why she seems to prefer this form over the big green glamazon that was more we’ll adjusted.

  5. #440
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kilderkin View Post
    Now that's a different point, and I do see this as reasonable

    If it was a confidence trick that would to an extent make sense and at least could work in a way

    But the creative presented it as fact that he isn't worthy, that no god is, that this was irrifutable and true

    And always was

    But it's not the case

    It is reasonable to suggest Thor's confidence was shuck by the power of the watcher, but that isn't really what they tried to show
    Try replacing belief with conviction and you will be closer to what I believe Aaron is getting at. The asserted reality of belief is what counts. Without belief that worthiness is possible there is no conviction that trying is enough, without that conviction one can’t lift the hammer. It doesn’t mean believe and you can, because a misguided person would be able to. Thor has conviction that he must strive for worthiness, it is a manifest reality. Before it was simple he believed he was worthy and his conviction sprang from that. But that was incorrect, and no matter how much he believed, that belief no longer mattered. He needed to base his convictions on a better understanding of reality.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 07-02-2019 at 04:46 PM.

  6. #441
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    I feel like there's some sort of statement and mindset nowadays that you can't be attractive without being considered nothing more than objectification in the media. You can be sexy, like attention, and still be a hero. There is nothing wrong with being comfortable with your sexuality and body and enjoy showing it off. I hope once Jen gets through this phase that she embraces that she was always a hero and she doesn't have to look like her cousin to be something more.
    Last edited by whiterabbit; 07-03-2019 at 05:19 AM.

  7. #442

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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    The way Aaron works is he places oblique references into his books to things he is planning in the long term. Fine by me. Not unique either. I am sure we all remember those crazy timelines and random notes that Beast was always working on. It's a casual comment that is clearly not promising anything imminent, so what's the problem?

    As to the "Gorr was Right" reveal, that was held back for story reasons. It was nothing to do with the Jane story, and would only have detracted from it. Those of us that were enjoying that story were not in a hurry. If you were not reading along I can see how that might be more frustrating. Just waiting for a spoiler post to tell you what it was about. I should know, I fielded my fair share of irrelevant "do we know what the whisper was yet" questions in threads discussing individual issues that didn't even have Odinson in them, and saying "not yet" in the very frequent threads that purely existed to ask that one question every two or three weeks. Especially when the often brand new poster often seemed to sit back and watch people argue without contributing or acknowledging the answer. That was my only frustration. The story was well paced for me.



    As revealed in march 2017 yes. This is not news and is hardly a spoiler now.
    Aaron is not special. I judge him the same way I would judge any other writer who drops a bomb and then starts writing something else for two years and seven months.

  8. #443
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Try replacing belief with conviction and you will be closer to what I believe Aaron is getting at. The asserted reality of belief is what counts. Without belief that worthiness is possible there is no conviction that trying is enough, without that conviction one can’t lift the hammer. It doesn’t mean believe and you can, because a misguided person would be able to. Thor has conviction that he must strive for worthiness, it is a manifest reality. Before it was simple he believed he was worthy and his conviction sprang from that. But that was incorrect, and no matter how much he believed, that belief no longer mattered. He needed to base his convictions on a better understanding of reality.
    That still doesn't work.

    Flashbacks have showed Thor in his youth believing he could lift the hammer and not yet being worthy enough to do so. Many characters have thought they should be able to lift the hammer and couldn't. It also doesn't explain away characters like Beta Ray Bill who had no beilf in the hammer whatsoever and yet still gained the powers of Thor.

    Really though, the whole thing is a pile of garbage because Thor knows who he is and what he's done in the past and as well as what he's tried to do. Why should somebody just telling him he isn't worthy have any affect on any of that? Even if that was true, we follow it up with Jane, who has done far less to make the world a better place be able to lift the hammer.

    The whole thing was basically an asspull by the writer who just wanted a spotlight for his atheist and horribly misconceived feminist beliefs.

    But enough talking about how he ruined Thor and how what he was saying didn't make a lick of sense to anyone that thought about it for more than two seconds. Let's get back to how his She-Hulk doesn't make anykind of sense for the character's history, but you know, rah rah feminism.

  9. #444
    Spectacular Member Chessboxer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiterabbit View Post
    I feel like there's some sort of statement and mindset nowadays that you can't be attractive without being considered something more than objectification in the media. You can be sexy, like attention, and still be a hero. There is nothing wrong with being comfortable with your sexuality and body and enjoy showing it off. I hope once Jen gets through this phase that she embraces that she was always a hero and she doesn't have to look like her cousin to be something more.
    Exactly, like Black Widow for example.

  10. #445
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Apparently you can lift the hammer if you are not worthy. Go figure. It is enough to try. Thor clearly stands as the god of trying to be better. Striving. Wanting to make the world a better place through example and through conviction. He was before and he is now. Perhaps we will get more exploration on this but I am not sure if we need it. What more do we need to know? Jane lifted it apparently because she was also striving to make the world a better place through conviction that the example of Thor was necessary. Sounds logical to me.

    Clearly there is more to tell about what happened when Odin was wielding it, but there was no enchantment back then that we are aware of aside from a binding enchantment.

    I mean this is a change but it’s subtle. It is less cosy perhaps. Maybe more messianic.

    Anyway, this is nothing to do with Avengers #20.
    I suppose Odin didn’t trust Thor was worthy of Mjolnir as a young adult, and put an enchantment on it that when Thor acts like a dick, he can’t hold it anymore, so from the Silver Age onwards, Thor play acted he was being concerned with protecting the helpless. But deep down, Thor also had a dark side, and when his dark side became selfish again, he couldn’t lift the hammer. I suppose Nick Fury whispered to Thor, that Fury knew Thor sneaked out at night and did dishonourable things, and when Thor realised he was lying to himself, he couldn’t lift the hammer?

    Thor must have done something wrong to have been turned into a doctor that he was, in Journey into Mystery #83. Once he struck the walking stick on the rock, trying to find forces to combat the Stone Men, Odin’s enchantment kicked in.
    Last edited by jackolover; 07-02-2019 at 11:45 PM.

  11. #446
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiterabbit View Post
    I feel like there's some sort of statement and mindset nowadays that you can't be attractive without being considered something more than objectification in the media. You can be sexy, like attention, and still be a hero. There is nothing wrong with being comfortable with your sexuality and body and enjoy showing it off. I hope once Jen gets through this phase that she embraces that she was always a hero and she doesn't have to look like her cousin to be something more.
    Perhaps look at it in a less objective way. The way you are stating that makes it nothing to do with feelings and body image. The way the story is looking at it is everything to do with emotion and the lived experience of someone who is in a different mindset and looking back at their past with conflicted feelings.

    Jen is not thinking ‘I never felt good about myself’ for example. She is in a mindset where she feels conflicted and is conflating her feelings over a long period. Have you never done this? On a trivial level have you never had a great day and then on reflection and in a worse mood reassessed everything and it suddenly seems like you were seeing everything through rose tinted spectacles?

    To explore ideas through character is not passing judgment on things. Especially when it is only just being explored and there is clearly more to come.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 07-03-2019 at 12:27 AM.

  12. #447
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    I really enjoy chewing the cud about Thor and worthiness but every time I do it here I feel like it isn’t on topic, so I will resist answering those questions in this place. There are at least two other threads where we can do that.

  13. #448
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Perhaps look at it in a less objective way. The way you are stating that makes it nothing to do with feelings and body image. The way the story is looking at it is everything to do with emotion and the lived experience of someone who is in a different mindset and looking back at their past with conflicted feelings.

    Jen is not thinking ‘I never felt good about myself’ for example. She is in a mindset where she feels conflicted and is conflating her feelings over a long period. Have you never done this? On a trivial level have you never had a great day and then on reflection and in a worse mood reassessed everything and it suddenly seems like you were seeing everything through rose tinted spectacles?

    To explore ideas through character is not passing judgment on things. Especially when it is only just being explored and there is clearly more to come.
    She is doubting her standing and overall worth based off her looks and past actions. Jennifer Walters would never do this. She LIKES being sexy, and that's okay. She LIKES the attention, and that's okay, too. She's reflecting because Jason Aaron is making the statement "If you're sexy, you can't be a serious hero. Because men just want to pork you."

    Which is very sexist. You can find people attractive and be taken seriously. Believe it or not, there's nothing wrong with being a fourth wall breaking, quick witted, and sexy character. You don't have to copy another person, especially your cousin, to find real worth.

  14. #449
    Extraordinary Member Vanguard-01's Avatar
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    Marvel says they're trying to bring in more women readers.

    Yep! Because absolutely EVERY woman fantasizes about being a hulking, ugly, stupid brute!
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    --Lord Alfred Tennyson--

  15. #450
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard-01 View Post
    Marvel says they're trying to bring in more women readers.

    Yep! Because absolutely EVERY woman fantasizes about being a hulking, ugly, stupid brute!
    I doubt women would flock to The Avengers anyway if She Hulk were gorgeous and green again. All the arguments I'm reading here is about The Hetero Cismale Gaze and how Aaron violates that (and then gives us a lecture about it). As big as she is, she could still present as "sexy" with the right artist, it's that Aaron doesn't want to, which is his prerogative as a the writer. I just think he should stop clapping back at some readers who disagree with him.

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