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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensational C View Post
    My ultimate problem of this is issue is why should Jen believe she has to change for bad people? Why does Jen blame herself, the victim? It disturbed me to see Jen believe that she has to change, she's the one that's wrong for being made fun of, of worse being assaulted of, that she is the one who has to make sacrifices especially with her intellect, something she worked a good part of her life for, in order to be free of other people's $#%#*& opinions and actions. I can only hope that the ultimate plan is for Jen to reject that reasoning.
    Jen doesn't blame herself. Not at all. That would be a misreading of the issue.

  2. #152
    Astonishing Member Ptrvc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Banner's always had a plate full of shit to deal with.

    But until Mantlo delved into Bruce's childhood, we didn't realize how messed up Bruce was even before he became the Hulk.
    Yeah Mantlo's retcon added depth to the Hulk and not explained how he got the way he was.

    Aaron's retcons seem to cast accusations on what came before, even though that's not what bwas portrayed in the past.

    Maybe that's not what he intended, but it's how it comes off.

  3. #153
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overhazard View Post
    Hmmm, I'm not entirely sure how to feel. On one hand, I do understand the argument, toning down the fanservice, making Jen a more serious character. I also think that maybe what Aaron is doing is a man's interpretation of what a strong woman is, which is also what Byrne did, and Peter David, and Slott, and all the other men who have written Jen before. Aarons is just a different interpretation is all. we all don't necessarily agree with it.
    I mean, as far as the fanservice, She-Hulk's looks were toned down even before Civil War II. She was still conventionally attractive but she wasn't a pinup model or discount Hulk.

    It's like with Carol. She's not wearing a swimsuit anymore but, especially since the movie hit, she's been depicted as fairly conventionally attractive but no less "serious" or "imposing" as a hero.

    Obviously being male writers they took a man's interpretation of what a strong woman is but it's only with Aaron where I feel like it's trying to apply a very masculine view of strength on someone who is normally a very strong and feminine character. He doesn't even want her called She-Hulk anymore.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    To look at Jen's history from today's perspective and suggest that maybe she wasn't as cool with the kind of attention she received as she let on, is an observation worth exploring.
    I mean, even if she wasn't cool with it the whole of point of being She-Hulk is that she had the power and the attitude to match it blow for blow and empower herself through it. That's what the Gamma abilities and looks meant to her.
    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    Also in today's world. I can guarantee if there was a SheHulk movie in the mainstream MCU this Shehulk would get far more attention for the right reasons than a movie about a fun and sexy green bombshell that is less powerful than her male counterpart.
    I think traditional She-Hulk would fit much better in the tone and style of the MCU then Aaron's would. Especially with how derivative she is of Bruce.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Banner was never as messed up as Mantlo revealed him to be.

    He was tortured by the curse of being the Hulk but Mantlo got into the psychology of Banner in a way that was unprecedented.
    Considering how deeply psychological the Hulk transformation is to begin with, I don't think it was that big a stretch.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Jen doesn't blame herself. Not at all. That would be a misreading of the issue.
    If anything she seems to blame the old She-Hulk.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    People can cry about this and that and try and attach various qualifiers to it because its success irks them for whatever reason but, at the end of the day, it's a very successful Thor run, period.
    At no point have I said it wasn't, I have always accepted and stated it is popular, period

  5. #155
    Astonishing Member jwatson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Jen doesn't blame herself. Not at all. That would be a misreading of the issue.
    I was just about to say. Page after page she was blaming the creeps for being creeps and she didn't change for them she decided she enjoyed looking like this. She felt she was free by not having to conform to what others saw as beautiful. She was far from blaming herself and relishing what she was.

    She even said. "bruce thinks i had it better, the adoration. but why don't i miss it" It was about her not others.
    Last edited by jwatson; 06-27-2019 at 02:14 PM.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  6. #156
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    I was just about to say. Page after page she was blaming the creeps for being creeps and she didn't change for them she decided she enjoyed looking like this. She felt she was free by not having to conform to what others saw as beautiful. She was far from blaming herself and relishing what she was.
    I mean, that's why she enjoyed being the old She-Hulk too.

  7. #157
    Astonishing Member jwatson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, that's why she enjoyed being the old She-Hulk too.
    And now she doesn't. Again i don't see the problem. Why does it matter what Jen looks like. Their are women in real life who people say "oh she would be so beautiful with a little makeup." or in some cases women use to dress in sexy clothes and then decided not to. Or women who cut their hair even though at one point they liked it long. Why isn't Jen allowed to be who she wants to be when she wants to be?
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  8. #158
    Astonishing Member jwatson's Avatar
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    Also Jen was the judge in the trial. It was she who was listening to all the arguments of the SheHulks. It was she who was deciding who was making the best argument and as the judge it was on her to decide how she wanted to look. That was Jen who made the decision not she hulk. So again, i'm not understanding why Jen can't look at her own experiences and decide what she wants to look like.

    All the other personalities of she hulks wanted to get out and that's why they were like. "She would have you believe it's the power, but it's not." The personalities were making their argument to the host personality and she decided, because i like it like this.
    Last edited by jwatson; 06-27-2019 at 02:28 PM.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  9. #159
    Incredible Member Skedatz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurolegacy View Post
    To literally just dilute everything that She-Hulk has been in her entire history to just being T & A is an insult to her as a character and displays blatant lack of the most basic understanding of who she is as a character. She-Hulk is a character who is a strong female character about female empowerment in a way that has quite a bit of depth especially compared to the ‘shout it from the mountaintops, subtle as a Hulk fist’ female empowerment that we get today. This is a character who is comfortable in her own skin even as a Hulk to the degree that she willingly remains as such most of the time and is no more a threat for it. She has the very thing that even the OG Hulk lacks in control. What Jen bares for the world that you call just T & A is what she chooses to bare rather than being restricted simply because she’s a woman. Hell even when it comes to fanservice with the character is blatant tongue-in-cheek, not something that detracts from her character. And as she was before Aaron came along was a lot of things, an Avenger, a member of the F4 so well trusted that Ben trusted her multiple times to stand in for him on the team in his stead, a respected lawyer, as well as the leader of A-Force. She was a fun character but in no way was she a joke. She was a character with depth and Aaron showed both in this issue and in this run that he doesn’t have even the most basic of grasp for the character especially to reduce her to nothing but the dumb muscle of the team. That isn’t empowerment, that is regressive especially for such a strong female character.
    Her history and what she was known for are two different things.

    When people complain about the new She-Hulk, they aren't talking about her learning the lessons between her duel identities or how they're sad she lost her capacity to be a lawyer for a while. The complaints were only about her physical representation and their enjoyment of that. So it's not like Jen's complaints in this issue came from nowhere. It would be hard to say the general public in a world inundated with superheroes would behave any differently than the devoted fans of comics today.

  10. #160
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    And now she doesn't. Again i don't see the problem. Why does it matter what Jen looks like. Their are women in real life who people say "oh she would be so beautiful with a little makeup." or in some cases women use to dress in sexy clothes and then decided not to. Or women who cut their hair even though at one point they liked it long. Why isn't Jen allowed to be who she wants to be when she wants to be?
    I mean, I see the problem in denying who she used to be and the strength of character that defined her then to become what's basically something derivative of her cousin instead of something all her own.

    This doesn't feel consistent or true to Jen's character to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skedatz View Post
    When people complain about the new She-Hulk, they aren't talking about her learning the lessons between her duel identities or how they're sad she lost her capacity to be a lawyer for a while. The complaints were only about her physical representation and their enjoyment of that. So it's not like Jen's complaints in this issue came from nowhere. It would be hard to say the general public in a world inundated with superheroes would behave any differently than the devoted fans of comics today.
    I mean, people have also complained plenty about how she's now just a generic Hulk with Hulk speak compared to how unique she used to be.

  11. #161
    Incredible Member Skedatz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, I see the problem in denying who she used to be and the strength of character that defined her then to become what's basically something derivative of her cousin instead of something all her own.

    This doesn't feel consistent or true to Jen's character to me.

    I mean, people have also complained plenty about how she's now just a generic Hulk with Hulk speak compared to how unique she used to be.
    A little bit here and there. But mostly in just comparing her directly to not being the Sensational She-Hulk when it isn't just directly complaining she isn't the Sexy She-Hulk anymore.

  12. #162
    Fantastic Member Venom Melendez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimate Captain America View Post
    It seems that Mallory Book was right all along...



    The defense rests its case.
    I miss Mallory, she was a good foil for Jen.

  13. #163
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skedatz View Post
    A little bit here and there. But mostly in just comparing her directly to not being the Sensational She-Hulk when it isn't just directly complaining she isn't the Sexy She-Hulk anymore.
    I mean, there was much more to the Sensational She-Hulk then just her looks though.

  14. #164
    Astonishing Member jwatson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, I see the problem in denying who she used to be and the strength of character that defined her then to become what's basically something derivative of her cousin instead of something all her own.

    This doesn't feel consistent or true to Jen's character to me.

    I mean, people have also complained plenty about how she's now just a generic Hulk with Hulk speak compared to how unique she used to be.
    Actually she's more powerful than bruce now.
    Avengers-She-Hulk-powers-Doctor-Strange.jpg

    oh and what do you know the smart mouth lawyer is still in there while in this more powerful form and in control unlike Bruce with Hulk. So it seems that all that is left is for Jen to gain better control. Oh and what do you know, that's exactly what she's doing training with Tchalla. All the complaints besides her body have been addressed. Hmmmm.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  15. #165
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    JMS and Coipel, Oeming and Di Vito's Ragnarok arc, and Langridge and Samnee's run could all join those three runs as peak Thor. But they're short.
    Indeed I place JMS above Simonson. I might even place it slightly above Aaron but below Lee/Kirby, but I would have to think carefully about it. Now if we include Gillen’s JitM too, as an adjacent Thor story then all bets are off, because I will be rereading that for far longer than anything considered ‘classic’ in the over 25 years old definition.

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