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  1. #166
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    JMS wrote barely a handful of Thor issues over ten years ago.

    To try and compare JMS' Thor to Aaron's run is absolutely ridiculous.

    JMS was on the book barely more than a year and it was in a much different marketplace at that.
    No it’s not silly, it’s just tricky as a comparison, but both did fascinating things and both will probably define an era. In many ways JMS helped define the entire modern era for Thor, and that’s pretty important to me.

  2. #167
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biclopcicle View Post
    I just think retconning is lazy. Even with a 55+ year history of continuity, there's room to explore
    Well you might want to stop reading Marvel now, before it gets too much, because it’s not lazy, it is the current accepted mode of canonical treatment. DC reboot, Marvel go through cyclical canonical shifts via retcons. It has to do this. It needs to stay relevant. This isn’t some choice that writers make. This is demanded by the audience, even if that demand is unspoken and not representative of older fans.

  3. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    Actually she's more powerful than bruce now.
    Attachment 83915

    oh and what do you know the smart mouth lawyer is still in there while in this more powerful form and in control unlike Bruce with Hulk. So it seems that all that is left is for Jen to gain better control. Oh and what do you know, that's exactly what she's doing training with Tchalla. All the complaints besides her body have been addressed. Hmmmm.
    She isn't, she just says she can generate more gamma than Bruce could, which isn't true since World Breaker Hulk is a thing and also she lost a fight to him in Immortal Hulk #7.

  4. #169
    Astonishing Member Ptrvc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    Actually she's more powerful than bruce now.
    Attachment 83915

    oh and what do you know the smart mouth lawyer is still in there while in this more powerful form and in control unlike Bruce with Hulk. So it seems that all that is left is for Jen to gain better control. Oh and what do you know, that's exactly what she's doing training with Tchalla. All the complaints besides her body have been addressed. Hmmmm.
    Except when she actually tried to fight him anyway. That didn't work out so well.

    Besides what she says is she exceeds his explosiveness which may be more her lack of ability to control her power.

  5. #170
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    Anyway Aarons writing was atrocious, it reminded me of the exchange Titania and Jane Thor had, Jen is a different Hulk to Bruce and that's fine. Bruce Hulk is a creature of chaos, fear and horror, but Jen She-Hulk form was what gave her confidence in herself. Stripping that away from her only to make her into another generic Hulk that is big and scary and everyone fears adds nothing to her character, just erases what she had.

    And i am appalled at some people who think all Jen ever was before was "wank material", insane... even more so because some of the first comments i saw on twitter on Jens new form was all the people that are attracted to giant muscle woman finally rejoicing, so nothing changes i guess.

  6. #171
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, there was much more to the Sensational She-Hulk then just her looks though.
    And clearly Aaron is not saying that Sensational She-Hulk was all about her looks. He has set up a dramatic tension in her psychological outlook that runs parallel to her physical tension over her being changed by the Celestials. What’s so wrong with that? He didn’t pass judgement on the older run, he has Jen conflicted over it. That’s a character choice.

  7. #172
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    Actually she's more powerful than bruce now.
    Attachment 83915
    That didn't seem to matter much to the Immortal Hulk. In practice she seems as strong as normal Hulk.
    oh and what do you know the smart mouth lawyer is still in there while in this more powerful form and in control unlike Bruce with Hulk. So it seems that all that is left is for Jen to gain better control. Oh and what do you know, that's exactly what she's doing training with Tchalla. All the complaints besides her body have been addressed. Hmmmm.
    I mean, if you get into the nitty, gritty, of it Bruce is still in there with Hulk. I think that's more prevalent with some versions of Hulk then others, but still.

    The smart mouth lawyer still being in there feels less relevant when she's still talking in Hulk speak and acting like the stereotypical Hulk. I mean, even versions of Bruce's Hulk act more intelligent and individualized then Jen is exhibiting right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    And clearly Aaron is not saying that Sensational She-Hulk was all about her looks. He has set up a dramatic tension in her psychological outlook that runs parallel to her physical tension over her being changed by the Celestials. What’s so wrong with that? He didn’t pass judgement on the older run, he has Jen conflicted over it. That’s a character choice.
    I don't see much conflict over it, we have Jen ultimately putting down her old self and how people reacted to her and preferring how Aaron is depicting her.

    The only conflict was at the beginning when they were addressing all the complaints fans have had about current She-Hulk, but that got dropped for "Hulk Smash!"

    Again, if something is effecting Jen mentally to make her prefer the current form, that's one thing, but I just don't think there's enough evidence for that yet.

  8. #173
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post

    The smart mouth lawyer still being in there feels less relevant when she's still talking in Hulk speak and acting like the stereotypical Hulk. I mean, even versions of Bruce's Hulk act more intelligent and individualized then Jen is exhibiting right now.
    Ah. So you are not actually reading this story then. You are clearly only reading the parts where she is hulked out.

    Seriously though what are you even arguing here? That Aaron shouldn’t tell a story about Jen being effected by the celestials? That this is somehow not allowed because she hasn’t been used this way before?

  9. #174
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Ah. So you are not actually reading this story then. You are clearly only reading the parts where she is hulked out.
    I mean, she's usually Hulked out so they kind of stand out more .
    Seriously though what are you even arguing here? That Aaron shouldn’t tell a story about Jen being effected by the celestials? That this is somehow not allowed because she hasn’t been used this way before?
    I guess I'm arguing against him writing/utilizing She-Hulk badly.

    I'm not inherently against new things (but is using She-Hulk as a classic Savage Hulk really all that novel?), but if I don't feel they're implemented well or worth it I will disagree with them.

  10. #175
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, she's usually Hulked out so they kind of stand out more .

    I guess I'm arguing against him writing/utilizing She-Hulk badly.

    I'm not inherently against new things (but is using She-Hulk as a classic Savage Hulk really all that novel?), but if I don't feel they're implemented well or worth it I will disagree with them.
    Well we are left in exactly the same position as your issue with Jane. By rejecting the premise you are only excluding yourself. Writers get to do this with editorial approval. You either enjoy the ride or not, but if you don’t approve this early perhaps get off the ride.

  11. #176
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Well we are left in exactly the same position as your issue with Jane. By rejecting the premise you are only excluding yourself. Writers get to do this with editorial approval. You either enjoy the ride or not, but if you don’t approve this early perhaps get off the ride.
    I mean, there's more to Aaron's Avengers then just his issues writing Jen and not using Thor well, so I have enough reason to still read the book (not my favorite Avengers run, but still solid).

  12. #177

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    If we take Aaron on his words, we can think that She-Hulk is not a superhero. She's an adict, one who likes to get into a state where she acts on impulses, her rational mind is clouded and her inhibitions are lowered. She does not turn into She-Hulk to help with crises, or even to protect herself, but to have adrenaline fixes and cope with her low self-esteem. Even more: she's a dangerous addict, as in this state she has destructive strength. She even mentions that she enjoys being feared and seen as a monster. She's not similar to a cop, she's similar to a junkie that takes a knife or a gun while on drugs. Hulk has the excuse that beneath the monster there is a genius who makes the maths to make sure that nobody dies during his rampages; Jennifer Walter may be a remarkable lawyer, but she's not a genius like Banner.

    Rather than be among the Avengers, she should be depowered ASAP, for the greater good of society.

  13. #178
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimate Captain America View Post
    If we take Aaron on his words, we can think that She-Hulk is not a superhero. She's an adict, one who likes to get into a state where she acts on impulses, her rational mind is clouded and her inhibitions are lowered. She does not turn into She-Hulk to help with crises, or even to protect herself, but to have adrenaline fixes and cope with her low self-esteem. Even more: she's a dangerous addict, as in this state she has destructive strength. She even mentions that she enjoys being feared and seen as a monster. She's not similar to a cop, she's similar to a junkie that takes a knife or a gun while on drugs. Hulk has the excuse that beneath the monster there is a genius who makes the maths to make sure that nobody dies during his rampages; Jennifer Walter may be a remarkable lawyer, but she's not a genius like Banner.

    Rather than be among the Avengers, she should be depowered ASAP, for the greater good of society.
    You are forgetting the key element here, that she was forced into her status quo by the Celestials. She is struggling with the new situation and she is conflicted over it, but she has not self-inflicted anything. She isn’t an addict she is someone struggling with control issues that were forced upon her. T’Challa’s therapy is about identifying any underlying anger and inner conflicts that may potentially trigger her. This issue is simply exploring what those underlying issues would be.

  14. #179
    Astonishing Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimate Captain America View Post
    If we take Aaron on his words, we can think that She-Hulk is not a superhero. She's an adict, one who likes to get into a state where she acts on impulses, her rational mind is clouded and her inhibitions are lowered. She does not turn into She-Hulk to help with crises, or even to protect herself, but to have adrenaline fixes and cope with her low self-esteem. Even more: she's a dangerous addict, as in this state she has destructive strength. She even mentions that she enjoys being feared and seen as a monster. She's not similar to a cop, she's similar to a junkie that takes a knife or a gun while on drugs. Hulk has the excuse that beneath the monster there is a genius who makes the maths to make sure that nobody dies during his rampages; Jennifer Walter may be a remarkable lawyer, but she's not a genius like Banner.

    Rather than be among the Avengers, she should be depowered ASAP, for the greater good of society.
    The only way Aaron could empower the character was to disempower her.
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  15. #180
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimate Captain America View Post
    If we take Aaron on his words, we can think that She-Hulk is not a superhero. She's an adict, one who likes to get into a state where she acts on impulses, her rational mind is clouded and her inhibitions are lowered. She does not turn into She-Hulk to help with crises, or even to protect herself, but to have adrenaline fixes and cope with her low self-esteem. Even more: she's a dangerous addict, as in this state she has destructive strength. She even mentions that she enjoys being feared and seen as a monster. She's not similar to a cop, she's similar to a junkie that takes a knife or a gun while on drugs. Hulk has the excuse that beneath the monster there is a genius who makes the maths to make sure that nobody dies during his rampages; Jennifer Walter may be a remarkable lawyer, but she's not a genius like Banner.

    Rather than be among the Avengers, she should be depowered ASAP, for the greater good of society.
    ..........................or she just has anger issues not only because of a situation she was forced into but how she’s being treated because of it?

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