Avengers 20, we are at peak Aaron people!

[Thor-Ul]

He can do wrong. He has done things I don’t like or care for. I don’t challenge that notion at all. But...

Could you give an example of something Aaron did wrong in your opinion? Prefereble, something he did for Marvel.

[Subzero89]

He can do wrong. He has done things I don’t like or care for. I don’t challenge that notion at all. But...

I'd like to hear those wrong doings if you don't mind.

Being a professional comic writer that is given the keys to the kingdom necessitates not being a dumbass by qualification. Accusing someone of that is not OK. It is ok to say you personally don’t see things the same way as them but the hoops they jump through and the editorial input that they receive means that they don’t get to do things Marvel don’t approve of. That means what they write has been signed off as of the necessary quality and not damaging to the properties.

Fandom seems to have a blind spot over this. They seem to think that a writer that does something they don’t like is at fault. Not that they did something they don’t personally appreciate, not that the vision challenges theirs or that the choices are not ones they would make, but that they made wrong bad choices or that the vision is wrong. That is entirely wrongheaded. It may be how modern fandom thinks but fandom is wrong and needs challenging.

No, this is literally something outside anyones control, writers can do very dumb stuff and have done really dumb stuff for decades now. I mean how is this not obvious?
Yea like the time it passed through editorial that an artist snuck in anti-semitic messages in X-men comics. The editorial is not perfect, neither is Aaron.

You don't seem to have a blind spot over Aaron it would seem. No they seem to think when writer does something stupid that the writer did something stupid, i read countless of comics where things happen that i don't like that doesn't mean the writer is necessarily at fault, this clearly isn't the case. And please there is absolutely nothing clever with what Aaron did here nor did he challenge much of anything. He just told us all what we already knew for the most part and then tried to act like he is super clever while all he did was write a pre-super Broly, Jen's character now is as deep as a box of matches.

which is exactly why we are arguing. Because you phrase it like that.

If you don't like me calling certain dumb things that Aaron has done as dumb things, than i dunno what to tell you except to get over and grow a thicker skin.

Not sure I read that. The way you express it sounds challenging, but I would need to see the context. So many of these “the writer was just wrong” notions have another way of looking at them.

LOL, here comes the "context" again. I'd love for you to put more context into the whole RSH and Hulk fight where she pushes him down in the middle of the street to have sex with him for 2 hours as others watch and does it solely to make her husband jealous, there is probably some hidden, magical, redeeming context we are all missing here from this clearly brilliant writing.

But until then don't worry i know the full context and it's just garbage writing from a sub-par writer who used to use sexist tropes when it was convenient for him and now tries to over-compensate for it by writing the most unnatural, dumb crap to wash away his previous sins.

[Reviresco]

Yes, that's what I felt, amongst other things, but it was a flat let down

Heh ... I imagine there was some groaning and tossing the comic away in disgust. I do a lot of that myself, nowadays. LOL!

It is more involved than this. The whisper need not be complex, it is the logic behind it that is more so. Not so complex that people should still be misunderstanding it however, but it often seems like an easy way to dismiss the book is to claim the logic is something that wouldn’t make sense and then bash it for not making sense.

The most important part was that Fury knew for a fact that Gorr was right. He effectively turned what Aaron portrayed as Thor’s constant doubts and fears about not being worthy into a verified fact that gods are not worthy. Now I know from starting a thread about this very point a while back that some people think that doesn’t make sense either, but it seems perfectly logical given the story of Original Sin IMO. Either way that’s the logic that drives the unworthy story and eventually that’s the reason that Thor still doesn’t consider himself worthy despite coming to terms with what it means and being able to lift Mjolnir again.

TBH, I found Original Sin to be ... underwhelming also. And there were things I outright disliked, and things I HATED, like how they treated Nick Fury to clear the way for movie synergy, not to mention what happened to poor Bucky. Man on the Wall. WTF??? But, back to the subject at hand ... I can't really comment on something I haven't read (the entire Aaron Thor run), but in the context of what I have, and the LOOOONG wait, I stand by my uninformed opinion that Nick Fury's Whisper was disappointing.

At some point, I'll probably sit down and read the whole Aaron run, and I'll try to keep your explanation in mind. While we've disagreed on a number of things, I generally find you a thoughtful sort of guy with interesting critiques.

[JKtheMac]

You will never catch me claiming Original Sin was good. It was tedious and pointless and should have been a single issue of Thor, but Marvel turned it into an event. But the key element of the story still stands, regardless of quality.

I'd like to hear those wrong doings if you don't mind.

Ha ha. If I had read this post first I would probably have declined but I seem to have just called a story of his pointless and tedious. You will note I did not say it was wrong or that Aaron or Marvel were stupid or talentless for doing it. Just that IMO it didn’t have a reason to exist outside of the one story point, and I found it dragged.

[Subzero89]

Ha ha. If I had read this post first I would probably have declined but I seem to have just called a story of his pointless and tedious. You will note I did not say it was wrong or that Aaron or Marvel were stupid or talentless for doing it. Just that IMO it didn’t have a reason to exist outside of the one story point, and I found it dragged.

Ok so Aaron is basically not wrong even when he does something you think was pointless, this is actually amazing.

[JKtheMac]

And please there is absolutely nothing clever with what Aaron did here nor did he challenge much of anything.

Just asserting that something isn’t clever is not going to stop those of us that believe it is from taking it seriously and analysing what he is doing.

It is clearly challenging you, because you have had a very obvious reaction against it. Again, this is part of the job of a good writer. Personally I believe it is possible you may reconsider things later, when the story unfolds, but I guess you know your tastes and you seem not to have a taste for Aaron and the way he does things. That doesn’t mean it is wrong. This is his job and he is good at it. So good Marvel trusted him with Star Wars and Avengers. That’s a great deal of responsibility and from my perspective he is living up to it.

If you don't like me calling certain dumb things that Aaron has done as dumb things, than i dunno what to tell you except to get over and grow a thicker skin.

I don’t have as much issue with you calling something dumb. Dumbass is clearly much more of an insult. Plus you keep aiming your insults at the writer and his competency. Big difference from my perspective.

Ok so Aaron is basically not wrong even when he does something you think was pointless, this is actually amazing.

Yep. You seem to be getting it now. That’s exactly how I think. The fact you find it so baffling says more about fandom than me.

[Subzero89]

Just asserting that something isn’t clever is not going to stop those of us that believe it is from taking it seriously and analysing what he is doing.

Yea it's hard to take Aaron seriously when he puts out garbage writing, he should go back to God of Thunder days, in fact that's what i am hoping his new mini will end up being more.

It is clearly challenging you, because you have had a very obvious reaction against it. Again, this is part of the job of a good writer. Personally I believe it is possible you may reconsider things later, when the story unfolds, but I guess you know your tastes and you seem not to have a taste for Aaron and the way he does things. That doesn’t mean it is wrong. This is his job and he is good at it. So good Marvel trusted him with Star Wars and Avengers. That’s a great deal of responsibility and from my perspective he is living up to it.

I mean i guess it challenges me in the way a turd on the street challenges me and i rather not step in it. I am not sure how he can unwrap this whole thing to be to my tastes he kinda wrote himself into a corner so it's not even possible anymore. You can hold any opinion of Aaron you want or think he is right about anything, i can objectively tell you he isn't right about Jen's characterization, just as he wasn't right in assuming only Jen ever experiences sexual harassment.

I don’t have as much issue with you calling something dumb. Dumbass is clearly much more of an insult. Plus you keep aiming your insults at the writer and his competency. Big difference from my perspective.

Yea, but Aaron really acts like a dumbass at times, hard to ignore really.

Yep. You seem to be getting it now. That’s exactly how I think. The fact you find it so baffling says more about fandom than me.

Lol, gold.

[JKtheMac]

i can objectively tell you he isn't right about Jen's characterization, just as he wasn't right in assuming only Jen ever experiences sexual harassment.

No you can’t. This is about story and interpretation of stories. That’s entirely subjective. There are some things you can tease out of stories that are objective, that isn’t one of them.

I have already made my points about my perspective way up in this thread. So have you. The rest is becoming cyclical. I think you understand where I am coming from and how I feel. That is enough for me. Even if you can’t quite accept why I think like this. I am bowing out of this specific exchange.

[kilderkin]

Heh ... I imagine there was some groaning and tossing the comic away in disgust. I do a lot of that myself, nowadays. LOL!





TBH, I found Original Sin to be ... underwhelming also. And there were things I outright disliked, and things I HATED, like how they treated Nick Fury to clear the way for movie synergy, not to mention what happened to poor Bucky. Man on the Wall. WTF??? But, back to the subject at hand ... I can't really comment on something I haven't read (the entire Aaron Thor run), but in the context of what I have, and the LOOOONG wait, I stand by my uninformed opinion that Nick Fury's Whisper was disappointing.

At some point, I'll probably sit down and read the whole Aaron run, and I'll try to keep your explanation in mind. While we've disagreed on a number of things, I generally find you a thoughtful sort of guy with interesting critiques.

The use of watcher fury to validate the idea that for was correct if just that, a mechanism by the writers to allow for validation do that a change in status quo could be created

Iirc, one of the creative said that it needed to be fury as the watcher so as to remove any fought

But that argument only works because one group of creative want to sell it to facilitate their new direction, that's to be expected that's how change with long term characters hold up

But in the end, it's fairly irrelevant, the history of the character denies the actual correctness of the whisper, why is Thor unworthy, sure many god's might be, that's never been in question, but why now was Thor, what had he done or failed to do, Dave the world again?

Stop another race being wiped out,

Held back another end of the universe scenario

And so on

In the end the current direction change needed to be validated, it's ok to do that, but it's not pulling the wool over any critical thinkers eyes

More so, the way her isn't all knowing, very nearly maybe, but if they were, they wouldn't actually bother or need to watch would they, they would already know, and since they do in order to learn what happens, they prove they don't know everything

More than anything, whilst a point about god's in general may have been correct ( and that's still debatable) in what way was Thor suddenly unworthy by the enchantment that had, a brief second before judged him worthy

Imo total garbage lazy forced logic that simply does not hold up

Better solutions to wanting to change the weilder could readily have been gound

Got was making a point about the gods being unworthy of worship, but that itself is irrelevant to the worthyness for the hammer, because people who weren't worshipped had been shown to be worthy, bill wasn't worshipped, neither was dargo, both worthy,

Cap might be worshipped as a hero, but it's hardly something he seeks or needs as validation, and he picked up first when he wasn't cap but rather in another guise, so even that is less than pertinent

The writers use fury to make a valid argument, but it is not a sound argument

The question remains, what made Thor unworthy of mjolnir,

nothing

[Subzero89]

No you can’t. This is about story and interpretation of stories. That’s entirely subjective. There are some things you can tease out of stories that are objective, that isn’t one of them.

Yes i can and your argument is lazy and makes no sense. It's like saying Michael Bay Transformers movies were not bad you just don't understand them.... Aaron writing and dialogue was cringy, he was objectively wrong about certain things as was shown and regressed Jens character to being just another bland "Hulk smash" character.

[JKtheMac]

Yes i can and your argument is lazy and makes no sense. It's like saying Michael Bay Transformers movies were not bad you just don't understand them.... Aaron writing and dialogue was cringy, he was objectively wrong about certain things as was shown and regressed Jens character to being just another bland "Hulk smash" character.

Sorry I was cross posting again. But I am bowing out.

[JKtheMac]

But in the end, it's fairly irrelevant, the history of the character denies the actual correctness of the whisper, why is Thor unworthy, sure many god's might be, that's never been in question, but why now was Thor, what had he done or failed to do, Dave the world again?

We already had this argument and I don’t really want to open the can again, but we do know one thing we didn’t before. Thor was never worthy. So this whole notion of ‘why did he suddenly stop being worthy’ is irrelevant.

I mean the fact you didn’t agree with the logic doesn’t negate the fact that I was almost completely correct in my analysis of the endgame status quo two years ago. So clearly the logic was sound from my perspective and it was sound enough to use it as a predictable outcome. That’s almost scientific!

[Alan2099]

We already had this argument and I don’t really want to open the can again, but we do know one thing we didn’t before. Thor was never worthy. So this whole notion of ‘why did he suddenly stop being worthy’ is irrelevant.

That's not something we didn't know before. That's something we were told that doesn't make sense.

You can't lift the hammer if you're not worthy. Thor has been, for most of his history, worthy enough to lift the hammer. Saying he's not worthy enough to do something he's already done doesn't make a lot of sense. You might as well come out and say Captain America has never worn a patriotic costume or that Wolverine has never killed anybody.

It's happened.

[H-E-D]

The way Aaron works is he places oblique references into his books to things he is planning in the long term. Fine by me. Not unique either. I am sure we all remember those crazy timelines and random notes that Beast was always working on. It's a casual comment that is clearly not promising anything imminent, so what's the problem?

As to the "Gorr was Right" reveal, that was held back for story reasons. It was nothing to do with the Jane story, and would only have detracted from it. Those of us that were enjoying that story were not in a hurry. If you were not reading along I can see how that might be more frustrating. Just waiting for a spoiler post to tell you what it was about. I should know, I fielded my fair share of irrelevant "do we know what the whisper was yet" questions in threads discussing individual issues that didn't even have Odinson in them, and saying "not yet" in the very frequent threads that purely existed to ask that one question every two or three weeks. Especially when the often brand new poster often seemed to sit back and watch people argue without contributing or acknowledging the answer. That was my only frustration. The story was well paced for me.

Personally, it worked for me as the whisper. But I think it took way too long to be revealed. The fact that it wasn't revealed became a distraction from more consequential matters.

I mean, I don't like that the unworthy-ing moment happened outside of the Thor book, in the midst of an event which was really not about Thor up to that moment, but that's a different matter from the content of the whisper.

[kilderkin]

That's not something we didn't know before. That's something we were told that doesn't make sense.

You can't lift the hammer if you're not worthy. Thor has been, for most of his history, worthy enough to lift the hammer. Saying he's not worthy enough to do something he's already done doesn't make a lot of sense. You might as well come out and say Captain America has never worn a patriotic costume or that Wolverine has never killed anybody.

It's happened.

You are totally correct

Which is my point about their argument being valid but not sound

It is nonsense, retroactively changing things or trying to create an internal logic to validate the direction they wish to go does not counter the vast evidence against it

Thor has been worthy, the proof is evident because he could hold the hammer and weild it

To suggest otherwise boarders on the ludacrious at best

Total nonsense

And using their own proof to validate their own argument is no different to looking for self vindicating data or evidence, it betrays an internal honesty and more do effectively betrays the attempted misdirection

It does not hold up to external assessment when you look beyond the evidence those wanting you to believe them present, of course their arguments back them up, that's what all self validation does

Utter nonsense