Avengers 20, we are at peak Aaron people!

[jetengine]

Stunning issue. All the more fun because people are bound to take it far too seriously.

The lived experience of She Hulk, through the eyes of modern comics. The art is up to the task too. Let’s face it, drawn like this she is still a pin-up.

Aaron has been doing a whole string of one and done character studies recently, and every one of them is well executed, thoughtful, mature and nuanced. This isn’t just peak Aaron, this is peak modern Marvel.

One of the questions Aaron sometimes asks is can comic book fans take a bit of banter, it seems pretty obvious that some just can’t.

Its less "cant take banter" and more "Cant take bad writing"

[JKtheMac]

Its less "cant take banter" and more "Cant take bad writing"

And it is categorically misrepresenting this issue to call it ‘bad writing’ by any stretch. Do you suggest that any story you don’t personally enjoy is bad writing? Is it always the writer’s fault if you don’t like something? Own your distaste. Tell us what you personally think, not what you want to assert about other people that have clearly passed the bar to write mainstream comics by a country mile.

Perhaps take a moment to look at the critical reviews of this comic. Universally positive so far.

[Venom Melendez]

Jen has always been sympathetic to the fact that Bruce can't control the Hulk. It's so weird to hear her say she wants to punch him because he envies her.

That's the only part that bothered me personally.

[beetee]

I think in his over literalized strawman fashion, Aaron is making an argument for body diversity and acceptance. Seriously.

[JKtheMac]

Here is the kind of nuanced criticism that we desperately need in this thread:

About this time in 2018, Jason Aaron kind of reset a bunch of progress Jennifer Walters made as a character. She brought the “Gray She-Hulk” under control, and her series ended at a good spot. Reverting her to a kind of mindless Hulk again is something, I, along with others, didn’t really like. But I think this issue does a lot to progress the character again. At least for whatever Jason Aaron is planning for her. Plus, the art is fantastic. This is a War of the Realms tie-in, but it easily stands on its own as a fantastic issue people should read.

Sequential Planet. 8.8/10

[Venom Melendez]

At some point the pendulum will swing back somewhat and people will realize that attractiveness is not some social construct, it's biological.

No it's Social and pretty subjective. What is considered attractive varies from country to country and culture to culture.

How can something that varies between countries and cultures be biological?

[JKtheMac]

No it's Social and pretty subjective. What is considered attractive varies from country to country and culture to culture.

How can something that varies between countries and cultures be biological?

See! The issue just justified its existence. How else would this have ever come up in a thread about The Avengers. Thank you VM.

[Prof. Warren]

So what’s the drawing of the heralds?

Don't quite know exactly - but it sure sounds intriguing!

And so what if there were pin-ups of her in the MU? There are pin-ups of actresses in the real world and they are still taken seriously for their. Hell there still exists things where men and women are voted sexiest man/woman on Earth and that detracts nothings from who they are or their accomplishments. This is a blatant point of just looking for things to be offended by that has become more prevalent and at the end of the day solves nothing because rather than focusing on actual problems, instead chooses to focus on the most minuscule of issues.

To not believe that people viewed in a sexualized manner can't take offense to it simply because it's prevalent and because, well, it's always been that way is an erroneous attitude. To diminish that point of view as a "minuscule" issue because you deem it to be is the kind of dismissive "get over it attitude" that much of the MeToo movement is a response to.

And you keep say that at some point that she'll go back to normal but that shouldn't mean that fans should have to consume garbage that blatantly disrespects that character and all they stand for for God knows how long. So fans have a right to be bothered by such a thing.

Every reader has a right to their own opinion.

But this isn't "garbage" on any level (even if you don't like it, there's a level of craft that can't be ignored) and it doesn't disrespect the character. If anything it shows that Aaron has given Jen a lot of thought and is taking her on a different journey.

You can choose not to like it and not to read it but other fans will choose the opposite. Nobody is forcing anybody to do anything. The hyperbole that some fans employ when they personally don't like something, taking it upon themselves to speak for "the fans", is ridiculous. Your displeasure is your own. You're entitled to it but no one speaks universally for what the "fans" like or don't like.

You mean like how Ulik asked her to marry him? Kind of weird that Aaron is doing the same thing he is accusing others of. It's almost like he is using a movement as a cover to whine and throw tantrums...oh wait he is.

Nope,I think ruined up on Jen being her own unique character but instead a whiney copy of the Hulk that villains STILL make passes at as she takes them out.

And the problem with Ulik being smitten with Jen because she beat the snot out of him is what, exactly?

Ulik is reacting to Jen's strength, not her looks, which is what Jen would want.

We are talking about Jen in particular, having a conversation that NEVER HAPPENED in a comic. It's just Aaron handwaving away his bad writing and hoping people buy into his faux woke act.

I think when anyone complains about a "faux woke act", I think we know where we stand.

I mean, ai get Aaron's point. Hes saying, "Jen's previous incarnation is invalid because dudes wrote it."

That's not what he's saying at all. He's not invalidating any previous characterizations. He's building on what's come before and bringing a perspective on the character that wouldn't have been possible previously because the culture was in a different place.

His Thor run is "classic" in the same way the Clone Saga is classic. Once the novelty died so did it.

The Clone Saga was never classic. Ever.

And Aaron's Thor run has gone on long enough and sustained popularity and critical raves long enough to not be considered a novelty.

I know Jane haters want to regard Aaron's run as a novelty because they don't want to give Jane's time as Thor any respect but Aaron's run has earned its accolades.

History is not going to be kind to that run.

It will, actually. It's a run that's going to be perpetually be found in Omnibuses.

Ulik the literal and forum troll, gotta love it

Yes, clearly Aaron is having a bit of fun there.

Opinions of his Thor vary, yes many love it and to them its 'classic', others, myself included in that detest what he'd written of Thor,

Opinions vary, no one is more correct than the other

Popular does not equal high quality, neither does it equal a lack of it.

But it does speak to the fact that a work is resonating with a large number of people.

Especially when that work spreads over many years and still continues to hang on to - and expand on - an audience.

Doesn't mean that everyone has to like it but it does mean that there's something substantial there that can't be shrugged off.

[InformationGeek]

Okay, I so decided to read this comic.

My god, this is awful. This is bad. This is horribly, HORRIBLY bad.

What? Is it because I like She-Hulk and I think She-Hulk is being written horribly? I mean, I'm not impressed by it, but that's not what I mean. This issue is crap because it's written like crap. This comic is written this way because Aaron is mad at the criticism and thoughts about his current portrayal of She-Hulk. This is just Aaron speaking through She-Hulk the entire time to try and make a point that doesn't really work given the history of the character.

"She-Hulk wasn't taken seriously because she was drawn all sexy and didn't look Hulk-like! Now she looks right and acts the right way!" I just can't believe this a great writer just produced somethign this immature. The portrayal of critics as trolls, the strawmen, and more. It's bad. Plus, the fact that NOTHING happens this entire comic and we're just being tossed around from moment to moment haphazardly makes this structurally weak.

Honestly, this isn't a character-focused issue. It is an issue where the writer is trying his best to justify his decisions. It feels like it comes from a place of weakness. And here is the thing... the sexualization of She-Hulk has been greatly toned down over the years. When was the last time we seen her used for fanservice? Even with Dan Slot's run with the Greg Horn covers, she wasn't really used for fan service or sexualization at all. Aaron is bringing up an issue that hasn't been much of an issue for years now to try and make a point.

[jwatson]

If She hulk currently is so mindless why was she able to have a conversation with Freiya in which she was so elequoently able to describe how Lucky thor is to have her. What progress was erased. She Hulk had suffered a devastating assault by the Thanos one that left her beaten and bruised in a coma and when she came out of it she was so scared, so afraid that that fear turned her into a truly mindless hulk. One that ran around almost hurting friends and innocents. She then went to therapy and was able to draw out her normal She Hulk persona but the scars were still there. This She Hulk IS strength, This she hulk is the most in a long time that we've even seen Jen in her human form. This she hulk isn't something that Jen hides behind to feel sexy or to feel strong, or to feel confident. The hulk she chooses to be now is strength and confidence, it's so complex how simple this she hulk gets to be.

And to touch on the marry me. It's a lot different than before a battle a man looking at a woman and saying. "hey why fight, marry me" or "after i beat you up your going to marry me." No. The troll completely got beaten like he was nothing, and they were shown throughout war of realms to love battle and as he laid their bruised, knowing he didn't stand a chance this warrior man asked her to "marry me" in that moment he was a weakling recognizing the strength of this tower that stood over him.

Most arguments i have seen are "omg why isn't she hot" but if shehulk was a man people would be eating up she is stronger than she has ever been, more relevant than she has ever been. and we actually get to see more sides to her in that she actually let's the human Jen out to interact as well. This is the first time Jen and SheHulk are truly working together.

[JKtheMac]

This comic is written this way because Aaron is mad at the criticism and thoughts about his current portrayal of She-Hulk. This is just Aaron speaking through She-Hulk the entire time to try and make a point that doesn't really work given the history of the character.

How exactly do you know this? It certainly seems to gel with the very first instant we see Jen in Aaron’s work, which suggests he has had this plan a lot longer than this criticism you seem so sure he is railing against.

"She-Hulk wasn't taken seriously because she was drawn all sexy and didn't look Hulk-like! Now she looks right and acts the right way!" I just can't believe this a great writer just produced somethign this immature.

Consider for a second that this isn’t at all what he is trying to say. It certainly isn’t the way I read it. Most critics don’t seem to be reading it this way either. It’s a reading, but personally I think it misses the entire point. It feels like a defensive reading to me.

The portrayal of critics as trolls, the strawmen, and more.

It’s a comedic commentary. No need to take it personally. He is accusing some people of being trolls as a joke. I mostly agree with the sentiment. Stridently moaning about an issue that happened several years ago after the arguments have been had and after taking pains to not do what he was being accused of must have been frustrating and must have felt very troll-like. It is frankly surprising he took so long to make the joke, but perhaps it’s untimely nature is part of the joke.

Plus, the fact that NOTHING happens this entire comic and we're just being tossed around from moment to moment haphazardly makes this structurally weak.

Maybe. It is a stretch to say nothing happens, and the structure is entirely character driven, so I would argue it is pretty structurally sound, but I guess we have different expectations in comics.

Honestly, this isn't a character-focused issue.

Hmm. That’s odd. So you at least considered that it might be. Maybe you are choosing to read it as something else? If you do that it might seem messy. If you do that you are not really giving it respect though.

It is an issue where the writer is trying his best to justify his decisions. It feels like it comes from a place of weakness.

But it is consistent so that undermines this assertion don’t you think? The very first thing we see of her in Avengers #1 is her being hassled by some guys in the street. That is dead on the theme he clearly had in mind all along.

And here is the thing... the sexualization of She-Hulk has been greatly toned down over the years. When was the last time we seen her used for fanservice? Even with Dan Slot's run with the Greg Horn covers, she wasn't really used for fan service or sexualization at all. Aaron is bringing up an issue that hasn't been much of an issue for years now to try and make a point.

If you want to make it about that then it may feel untimely. Aaron isn’t doing that. He is making it about the character. He is clearly suggesting that she is struggling with this aspect of her past. That’s a valid choice for any writer dealing with canon.

[InformationGeek]

Most arguments i have seen are "omg why isn't she hot" but if shehulk was a man people would be eating up she is stronger than she has ever been, more relevant than she has ever been. and we actually get to see more sides to her in that she actually let's the human Jen out to interact as well. This is the first time Jen and SheHulk are truly working together.

Out of curiosity, how has she been more relevant now than she has ever been? Every time I hear about She-Hulk... no one ever really brings up her current state, just talking about the past and how she usually is.

[Biclopcicle]

No it's Social and pretty subjective. What is considered attractive varies from country to country and culture to culture.

How can something that varies between countries and cultures be biological?

There are some superficial aspects ("arched brows? Thick brows") that are variable across time and culture. But then there are some basic aspects of physical appearance that are steady across human history and culture. There's not enough time or space here to get into symmetry and proportions of the face or the human body, but those are, within some range, stable across humanity.

One example: the female hip:waist ratio has been studied across cultures and there is a fairly consistent acceptance of what is desirable...wider hips and a narrower waist are generally indicative of biological fitness for child rearing

[jwatson]

Out of curiosity, how has she been more relevant now than she has ever been? Every time I hear about She-Hulk... no one ever really brings up her current state, just talking about the past and how she usually is.

Proably because they feel their pin ups aren't the same anymore. But in the Marvel Universe she is more revelant. She is a heavy Hitter. Carol would have never left the old She Hulk by herself to fight 100s of trolls.

The old she hulk didn't have the respect of the All-mother who watched in Awe as she fought.

The old She Hulk couldn't shut Blade up with just her presence.

She she may have lost some lusty fans but in the marvel universe Jen has never been seen as more powerful and more relevant. usually they ran to find the hulk when they needed a big gun.

And best of all as we've seen unlike the bruce she doesn't lose herself, she is more herself than ever so both her personas get to be relevant.

[jwatson]

And to top it off the celestials. Some of the most powerful beings in the entire marvel universe have plans for her. NEED her. That's relevance.