Avengers 20, we are at peak Aaron people!

[Electricmastro]

It's this kind of childish use of his position as writer that makes me lose all interest in his work

He's not writing a story here, it's a retort, effectively propaganda

It's using his position to speak out against what he feels is incorrect criticism, rather than on a reasonable forum, or trade press, instead of actually writing a story about the characters

It might be meant as a joke at some people's expense but to me it betrays a complete lack of respect for the consumer

I'm many ways this imo is utterly deplorable

I feel

Yeah. I don't take issue with a "don't be a bad person towards women" message, but what I do take issue with is bad writing, and I'm sure many people out there can come to the understanding of why some are reasonably saying this wasn't written that well.

[kilderkin]

Yeah. I don't take issue with a "don't be a bad person towards women" message, but what I do take issue with is bad writing, and I'm sure many people out there can come to the understanding of why some are reasonably saying this wasn't written that well.

I take exception with the writer using their position to add responses about real world criticism of their work in story

For me that is nothing short of an abuse of their position, it's not a part of the story their telling, it's a use of their platform to make s real world comment

I certainly have no exception with them defending their work, that if only fair, but there are many places to do that

Attacking the consumer from a singular position, which isn't really what the story is about but has been added to attack some people is in my opinion an abuse of position

There are many forums available to defend their work if they feel they need to, including their own company's press office, web site, social media, trade press etc which doesn't use the consumers intended purchase to attack some of them

The story about Jen I'm not really commenting on, as I've now dropped the book and don't know the specifics though the issue it seems to address is clearly very important, I couldn't comment on the virtues of the handling of it here

[JKtheMac]

Jason Aaron is the one saying men don't take attractive females seriously, despite the fact Wonder Woman and Harley Quinn are easily two of the most marketable and popular characters in DC. As for him wanting a new characterization, we just call that doing a Bendis. Jen doesn't need to be her cousin.

Nope. Isn’t saying that. You keep saying that by continually bringing up something that isn’t in the book.

[lordozone]

I just read Immortal Hulk #20 and It's interesting to compare the difference of reception between the red Harpy ( a monstruous version of Betty Ross) and the new She-Hulk. Even fans of Betty Ross and Red She-Hulk have nothing to say about the Red Harpy, because her transformation serve a clear purpose, serve the story, and is a natural evolution of the character rooted on past stories and developments. My problem with the new She-hulk (beside that I prefer her iconic appearance and personality, but it's a personal taste) is that it seem totally random and hollow.

For the most part, I was not a fan but I liked the run of Tamaki because the character study was interesting, and it was logic: after the trauma of Civil War 2, she needed to rebuild herself, and at the end of this run She-Hulk confronted her grief and came back stronger than ever, proud of herself.

Aaron chose to wipe off all this recent character building, to make her a female version of the Savage Hulk. If there is a good reason, why not. But instead of taking the high road and proving by his writing and character-building that it's the best direction, instead of making this new iteration of She-Hulk so interesting and so essential to his run that even the haters are speechless, he decided to write a meta-story where he said that people who don't like his new She-Hulk are misogynists and Trolls.
It's not the first time that he does this, and I continue to think that it's not the best strategy to win the undecided.

Aaron is a very good writer and (except his first arc) I like his Avengers. But he needs to stop these kinds of behaviors. It's just childish and create unnecessary bad-buzz and anger.

[Subzero89]

I just read Immortal Hulk #20 and It's interesting to compare the difference of reception between the red Harpy ( a monstruous version of Betty Ross) and the new She-Hulk. Even fans of Betty Ross and Red She-Hulk have nothing to say about the Red Harpy, because her transformation serve a clear purpose, serve the story, and is a natural evolution of the character rooted on past stories and developments. My problem with the new She-hulk (beside that I prefer her iconic appearance and personality, but it's a personal taste) is that it seem totally random and hollow.

For the most part, I was not a fan but I liked the run of Tamaki because the character study was interesting, and it was logic: after the trauma of Civil War 2, she needed to rebuild herself, and at the end of this run She-Hulk confronted her grief and came back stronger than ever, proud of herself.

Aaron chose to wipe off all this recent character building, to make her a female version of the Savage Hulk. If there is a good reason, why not. But instead of taking the high road and proving by his writing and character-building that it's the best direction, instead of making this new iteration of She-Hulk so interesting and so essential to his run that even the haters are speechless, he decided to write a meta-story where he said that people who don't like his new She-Hulk are misogynists and Trolls.
It's not the first time that he does this, and I continue to think that it's not the best strategy to win the undecided.

Aaron is a very good writer and (except his first arc) I like his Avengers. But he needs to stop these kinds of behaviors. It's just childish and create unnecessary bad-buzz and anger.

Pretty much.

Red Harpy looks even more monstrous and "ugly" than She-Hulk, especially with the way her jaw opens like that.. ugh... yet i love the design itself, it fits the theme and the horror setting Al is going for and even though it's a new design he didn't take a swing at the old one or try to deconstruct something or added some out of place social commentary about internet trolls, he also made sure to respect the old one by still keeping her red color, even though Harpy famously is suppose to be green, he kinda melded the 2 worlds together.

[lordozone]

Pretty much.

Red Harpy looks even more monstrous and "ugly" than She-Hulk, especially with the way her jaw opens like that.. ugh... yet i love the design itself, it fits the theme and the horror setting Al is going for and even though it's a new design he didn't take a swing at the old one or try to deconstruct something or added some out of place social commentary about internet trolls, he also made sure to respect the old one by still keeping her red color, even though Harpy famously is suppose to be green, he kinda melded the 2 worlds together.

I really thought that, after ANAD, the writers understood that to directly antagonize the consumers is counter-productive (except the racists, misogynists, harassers etc. when it's done in a subtle and clever way... but it's complicated to be subtle in a mainstream comics )

[whiterabbit]

Nope. Isn’t saying that. You keep saying that by continually bringing up something that isn’t in the book.

I'll ask you this: what is wrong with a female being physically attractive and liking her sexuality and having no self doubt about her habits and standing with her peers? Do you hate She-Hulk and view her as a problem in comics because she's sexy?? Because you're clearly behind Jason Aaron's current direction. If you have a problem with She-Hulk's characterization in the past then the problem is with you.

[Electricmastro]

I really thought that, after ANAD, the writers understood that to directly antagonize the consumers is counter-productive (except the racists, misogynists, harassers etc. when it's done in a subtle and clever way... but it's complicated to be subtle in a mainstream comics )

Makes me wonder if Jason Aaron has made it his own job to antagonize the internet trolls that are racist/misogynist/harassers. At its least extreme, it should be the job of moderators to remove them (or even ban them) if necessary, and at its most extreme, it should be the job of the police to take them down (or even thrown them in jail) if necessary, because I'm pretty sure that doing the job of a comic book writer doesn't inherently come with the obligation of antagonizing and crusading against all of the bad people that are out there in the entire world.

[protege]

But The look of a Hulk is supposedly driven by the psychological make of each individual. Bruce Banner's Hulk look is shaped by years of parental abuse and the psychological splits between the rational, the sexual and professional frustrations he's endured (Manchild Hulk, Joe Fixit, Professor Hulk, Devil Hulk). Betty Ross Hulk look is shaped by her anger and resentments towards her domineering father General Ross and the passive aggressive relationship with Bruce Banner/Hulk (Harpy, Red She Hulk).

Jennifer's standard look as She Hulk was certainly shaped by her confidence in herself, but it was also shaped by The Male Gaze of working in corporate law ( and dealing with the harassment there). She doesn't have full agency over her appearance here in The Avengers because Space Gods did it. While she accepts her new look, she's nonetheless at war with herself because Aaron has given Jennifer a split personality to fight it out.... This what makes her seem to be a Hulk clone to me, not her appearance.

I never really was able to get into the she hulk the past few years; the whole ptsd thing/slow build to whatever the she hulk became took too long to get to the point, so i’m Not sure how much of this is in play here. But I can’t even tell who Jen Walters anymore.

[JKtheMac]

I'll ask you this: what is wrong with a female being physically attractive and liking her sexuality and having no self doubt about her habits and standing with her peers?

Nothing. Nobody said there was anything wrong with that. This comic book certainly didn’t. Show me where it says she can’t be sexy? Why do you have a problem with her doubts?

Do you hate She-Hulk and view her as a problem in comics because she's sexy??

No. I think she is a fun comic book character. She has been portrayed in ways I am not comfortable with on some covers, but everyone has a different line of taste and I certainly wouldn’t deny anyone else from enjoying those covers. I mean, I have actually drawn pin-ups myself. I have coloured some extreamly sexy and provocative pictures in the past. I am a fan of Zenescope covers. I am not the person you seem to be insisting I am.

Because you're clearly behind Jason Aaron's current direction.

Clearly. I have to wonder though, have you been reading it? I mean issues 1-19. Have you actually been following the story? Do you have a handle on what Aaron is actually doing?

If you have a problem with She-Hulk's characterization in the past then the problem is with you.

I don’t. I don’t see any evidence Aaron has either.

Putting attitudes in his head and then complaining about those attitudes that you are projecting there is not helpful.

[JKtheMac]

Lets ask some questions.

Is Aaron saying Jen didn't enjoy being her old self?

No -> "I actually enjoyed being a superhero. I loved being the fun Hulk. I loved it a whole helluva lot."

Is he saying Jen was not OK with looking sexy?

No he is saying she believes it came with some downsides. Sides that might not be immediately obvious unless you walked in her shoes.

Is he saying her pin-up covers were universally wrong?

No but she contrasts the teenage pin-up that Bruce talks about with the incident in Fantastic Four 275 which she wasn't happy with. That was one of the downsides.

Is he creating this conflicted attitude out of whole cloth without reference to the past?

Um.. Fantastic Four #275? That is him doing due diligence. We can assume he read more than just that issue because that's actually his job. He gets paid to research and write comics. He has a whole team telling him which books to check out called the editors. Not that he would need them to find that story. It is infamous and he probably owns a copy, being a collector of comics.

Is he saying she prefers being this way now to the old way?

Yes, kind of. She is clearly enjoying being who she is right now. She still has a sexy toned muscular look, that is right there in the splash with Danvers. Just not green. She gets to be much more powerful and she is clearly enjoying that. She also knows that others are a little worried about that. Especially the explosions. Especially T'Challa*.

But, she is also internally conflicted about this. In therapy, part of her that she is suppressing wants to return to being the character she was immediately before. That part is accusing the other part of killing who she was. So that is actually the opposite of saying she is happier now. It is saying she is conflicted.

*T'Challa is actually being written in a slightly sinister way. With subtle reference to Ozymandias, so my bet is the therapy will do more harm than good.

[Subzero89]

I really thought that, after ANAD, the writers understood that to directly antagonize the consumers is counter-productive (except the racists, misogynists, harassers etc. when it's done in a subtle and clever way... but it's complicated to be subtle in a mainstream comics )

Yea obviously the vast majority of people don't like racists, misogynists, harassers, etc... you can make fun of those people but what Aaron has always done is equating even mild and legit criticisms he receives as the worst kind of people. Like i have no doubt Aaron received all kinds of vile insults, threats regarding female Thor. But he chose to project those things multiple times already in the comics which is fairly unprofessional as well as chose to put in some of the most mildest things like "how can Thor be a legacy when Thor is his name" Really Aaron? That's the people you chose to throw under the bus and have Jen mercilessly beat up in the form of Ulik the troll? Not the people that cursed at you, your family, wished you all kinds of harm? Freaking ridiculous.

Anyway good point in bringing up Red Harpy, she is a perfect example of a monstrous female character done right that everyone loves so far. I wonder what's the difference... maybe none of the readers got browbeat over the head by Ewing when he designed her... just a guess.

[beetee]

Anyway good point in bringing up Red Harpy, she is a perfect example of a monstrous female character done right that everyone loves so far. I wonder what's the difference... maybe none of the readers got browbeat over the head by Ewing when he designed her... just a guess.

To most readers Red Harpy is still "recognizably female". She's still relatively slimmer than a Hulk and all her feminine curves are in place. Her most disturbing feature is her distended "bird" face and her disgusting dietary habits... The other difference is that Betty Ross did not present as "sexy" to the male gaze. She was nothing more at the time than "The Girlfriend" to be occasionally kidnapped and menaced. Becoming Red She Hulk actually gave her an upgrade of sorts. I should also point out, Betty also went through a hulked out phase in her own comic, which didn't spark fanrage. And that's because throughout her history Betty only had to be attractive, not hot. Jennifer's She Hulk has been generally drawn with maximum sex appeal because her primary powerset is physical strength... Big Muscles read as "masculine" to the average reader and usually it's toned down. Now it's in the face of those readers, breaking the hot look they're used to.

[JKtheMac]

Yea obviously the vast majority of people don't like racists, misogynists, harassers, etc... you can make fun of those people but what Aaron has always done is equating even mild and legit criticisms he receives as the worst kind of people.

Really? Prove that. Prove you are not just reading this into what you are seeing. Projecting the other side of your argument onto a writer.

[Subzero89]

To most readers Red Harpy is still "recognizably female". She's still relatively slimmer than a Hulk and all her feminine curves are in place. Her most disturbing feature is her distended "bird" face and her disgusting dietary habits... The other difference is that Betty Ross did not present as "sexy" to the male gaze. She was nothing more at the time than "The Girlfriend" to be occasionally kidnapped and menaced. Becoming Red She Hulk actually gave her an upgrade of sorts. I should also point out, Betty also went through a hulked out phase in her own comic, which didn't spark fanrage. And that's because throughout her history Betty only had to be attractive, not hot. Jennifer's She Hulk has been generally drawn with maximum sex appeal because her primary powerset is physical strength... Big Muscles read as "masculine" to the average reader and usually it's toned down. Now it's in the face of those readers, breaking the hot look they're used to.

To me she isn't recongnazible female, she has more monstrous features than She-Hulk and walks slouched over like she's the hunchback or something. You are talking about Betty from the start i am talking about her as Red She Hulk where she was in fact presented sexy to the "male gaze", ironically during Jason Aaron run she even had a bikini variant cover. Also you seem to be projecting an awful lot here i am sorry to say... attractive but not hot? What really?

Betty-Ross-Steals-Dominos-Costume1-580x273.jpg

Green She Hulk has spent about 20 issues of Avengers being having giant "masculine" muscles and apart from a tiny fringe nobody had a problem, until issue 20 rolled out and her having giant muscles was no longer the problem but Aaron taking shots at the fanbase, turning her and Bruce's life into some screwy competition on who had it worse and just trying to justify why she is more "free" now than she was before despite the fact that Jennifer felt quite free and confident in the past and the whole flirting and that nonsense clearly didn't stop with her ugly self because Ulik couldn't stop talking about how he wants her for himself...

All of this in the end is PROJECTION, all Aaron and some other people want is to feel justified in everything they do and say, when reality often doesn't convey with them they have to invent a problem and even stir the pot themselves to create controversy. 20 Avengers issues of She-Hulk with most people not caring about her monstrous size but with issue 20 it's all of a sudden problem and people think it's because she looks like a monster and not because of Aarons poor writing surrounding the issue.