Avengers 20, we are at peak Aaron people!

[Biclopcicle]

I wouldn't say contradicting. I would say commenting and building on.

We're in a much different place culturally now than we were then. I don't think it's wrong of Aaron to look at Jen's history and call aspects of it into question and look at it from a perspective that wouldn't have been possible previously.

I mean, I just don't like retconning in general. It's something that makes me nauseated and I try to avoid it when I can. It's one thing to fill in blanks, it's another thing to revise a known history.

It's a given that our cultural norms and standards are different now than when they were 25+ years ago. But there's a better way to deal with that than Aaron saying, "hey, you know all those issues Byrne wrote on She-Hulk? Well, Jen was secretly harboring pain and frustration over her sexual identity and gender role." Because she was very vocal about her comfort level with her identity at that point.

[Biclopcicle]

I just think retconning is lazy. Even with a 55+ year history of continuity, there's room to explore

[jwatson]

I would say Ulik's reaction is less about his perception of Jen as a sexual object and more about his respect for her greater strength.

They get it. How many dudes are going to go "marry me" after some hulked out chick beats them to pulp. They would be like "someone get this man hating freak."

[InformationGeek]

So it doesn't affect Jen if she's harassed in a form that isn't She-Hulk? It's ok if it's a creepy guy hitting on a normal woman? Come on.

Ummmm, nooooooooooooooo. Don't put words in my mouth.

The point is, her previous form as She-Hulk was an attractive one. The (unwanted) attention she received was based on her desirability.

This scene shows that Aaron has had his plans for Jen in mind from the start.

Okay, but still doesn't make it work as well as you guys think it does. This scene would work better if Jen was She-Hulk and it would make the point stronger when it comes up here.

Perhaps you are missing the big green face and my point? I am saying that notions of identity and her sexualisation were there right from the start, you are saying they are only here because Aaron is reacting to criticism. That page proves my point.

And again, the point would work better if Jen was She-Hulk here.

And yes, I still feel this issue is very reactive to criticism. Otherwise, why would this be here or her wearing there "No Fun" shirt?

They get it. How many dudes are going to go "marry me" after some hulked out chick beats them to pulp. They would be like "someone get this man hating freak."

Wellllll, if you're talking manga, I'm sure we can find some there. ;D

[Triniking1234]

I'll have to properly read this during the weekend since I need to catch up anyway. I only found the Jude Terror article on BC and that plus the comments here just make it sound like Aaron is keeping her in Abominatrix form because she was too sexy before.

[jwatson]

Ummmm, nooooooooooooooo. Don't put words in my mouth.



Okay, but still doesn't make it work as well as you guys think it does. This scene would work better if Jen was She-Hulk and it would make the point stronger when it comes up here.



And again, the point would work better if Jen was She-Hulk here.

And yes, I still feel this issue is very reactive to criticism. Otherwise, why would this be here or her wearing there "No Fun" shirt?





Wellllll, if you're talking manga, I'm sure we can find some there. ;D

But if Jen had a problem with it so much so that she instinctively turned into shehulk as though she was in danger. And as stated many times she hulk are pieces of Jen personality then wouldn't it stand to reason that this she hulk is reflecting what human Jen felt more so than any other version of she hulk? Also Jenn herself in human form embraced this she hulk and the qualities of her personality that bothered her in human form. So given her state of mind in human form wouldn't this form of she hulk be the one she connects to most... *Drops mic* 😁

[Rrobin]

I don't even mind her current appearance, HOWEVER the fact that she talks in broken sentences like Bruce really irks me. I can see where Aaron is coming from with the sexism angle, but he didn't have to revamp her entire personality to address that

[InformationGeek]

But if Jen had a problem with it so much so that she instinctively turned into shehulk as though she was in danger. And as stated many times she hulk are pieces of Jen personality then wouldn't it stand to reason that this she hulk is reflecting what human Jen felt more so than any other version of she hulk? Also Jenn herself in human form embraced this she hulk and the qualities of her personality that bothered her in human form. So given her state of mind in human form wouldn't this form of she hulk be the one she connects to most... *Drops mic* ��

Well given the history of the character and what has been established over the years... no. No it wouldn't. It's not what she connects to the most. Maybe right now under Aaron's writing, but that's kind of it. I'm not seeing anything here that makes this makes the version to she connects to the most, especially since, again, this is the only issue where this has ever come up and honestly, it's kind of creepy that the writer wants to rewrite history to make She-Hulk a victim of constant sexual harassment over the years out of the blue. Sorry man, but I'm going to hand you back your mic. Don't worry, it didn't break when you dropped it.

[jwatson]

Well given the history of the character and what has been established over the years... no. No it wouldn't. It's not what she connects to the most. Maybe right now under Aaron's writing, but that's kind of it. I'm not seeing anything here that makes this makes the version to she connects to the most, especially since, again, this is the only issue where this has ever come up and honestly, it's kind of creepy that the writer wants to rewrite history to make She-Hulk a victim of constant sexual harassment over the years out of the blue. Sorry man, but I'm going to hand you back your mic. Don't worry, it didn't break when you dropped it.

Um didn't we just have a whole run where Jen was scared and felt like a victim after the whole thanos things. So wouldn't that also still be a part of Jen. And if SheHulk is a part of her personality wouldn't it stand to reason a lot of those feelings still were there. Or do you expect Jen to be the exact same Jen after being beaten nearly to death by Thanos and then having to deal with a hulk she had little to no control over when she transformed. Or is Jen suppose to stay exactly the same personality wise after going through so much. It's not that hard to connect victim of extreme violence with victim of extreme harrasment. And this isn't the only issue as the prior scan showed Jen in human form reacting aggressively to being cat called so obviously jen herself had feelings about this. Or does she hulk only reflect one part of her personality? You can't have it both ways. Whatever Jen experiences it tends to reason where her mindset is at the time her hulk reflects that. So i'm just going to drop that one more time.

[Anthony W]

i wouldn't say it was no big deal. but, in this very issue, the king of the trolls flirted with her. it was like the only thing that Ulik said before being beaten unconscious. so what was Aaron's message?

That Aaron is using a faux woke act to cover up his bad writing? As a minority you get pretty good at spotting people pretending to be down with a cause so they can sell you a terrible product.

[InformationGeek]

Also... isn't it kind of weird when you think about it? Aaron is trying to downplay She-Hulk's sexualization and make her into this big, hulking (ha) form so she won't be as sexualized or objectified. But the thing is... that doesn't really matter, does it? Women are subjected to terrible things regardless of what they look like. Skinny, full-figured, fat, musclebound, tall, short, so on and so forth. And as shown with the troll, she is still getting hit on or having people crush on her. So what is he trying to say then?

Honestly, it doesn't sit right with me. The more I think about this comic, the stranger and more iffy the issue comes across. I don't think this issue was as empowering as Aaron thinks it was unfortunately.

[Prof. Warren]

I mean, I just don't like retconning in general. It's something that makes me nauseated and I try to avoid it when I can. It's one thing to fill in blanks, it's another thing to revise a known history.

It's not retconning.

It's not saying those issues never happened or is revising them.

Aaron is saying that there's more to explore. That we shouldn't just take a superficial view of Jen's history.

It seems like some fans just want to point to those earlier issues and say "See? She was cool with it!" and leave it at that.

It's a given that our cultural norms and standards are different now than when they were 25+ years ago. But there's a better way to deal with that than Aaron saying, "hey, you know all those issues Byrne wrote on She-Hulk? Well, Jen was secretly harboring pain and frustration over her sexual identity and gender role." Because she was very vocal about her comfort level with her identity at that point.

At that point the culture was in a very different place.

It would not have occurred to Byrne to perceive any sexism in his portrayal of She-Hulk.

Certainly there was likely none intended. For the time, it was a very positive portrayal.

But it's not wrong for Aaron to look at past depictions of Jen from a modern standpoint and bring a new perspective.

We know now that women have not been nearly as ok with the attention they receive as we have wanted to believe and that, for fear of speaking out, they sometimes let us believe.

[jwatson]

It's not retconning.

It's not saying those issues never happened or is revising them.

Aaron is saying that there's more to explore. That we shouldn't just take a superficial view of Jen's history.

It seems like some fans just want to point to those earlier issues and say "See? She was cool with it!" and leave it at that.



At that point the culture was in a very different place.

It would not have occurred to Byrne to perceive any sexism in his portrayal of She-Hulk.

Certainly there was likely none intended. For the time, it was a very positive portrayal.

But it's not wrong for Aaron to look at past depictions of Jen from a modern standpoint and bring a new perspective.

We know now that women have not been nearly as ok with the attention they receive as we have wanted to believe and that, for fear of speaking out, they sometimes let us believe.

And also the issue made it clear this is a choice for Jenn. The she hulk in the court room says "she would have you believe that it's her powers that have her acting the way she does." meaning she doesn't need to particuarlly look the way she does when she is she hulk. It's how she feels more comfortable. Why does she need to look sexy when she is going to go fight. This isn't the wwe, that doesn't make sense. I also love that Jenn is becoming more comfortable in her own skin and again we are seeing her as just herself a lot more rather than her just staying as She Hulk all the time. Why aren't people asking what does Jen not like about herself that she wanted to be she hulk ALL the time and live in that altered state rather than just being herself, a successful, smart, attractive lawyer. I am loving where Aaron is going with her. It's like Jen is putting down the bottle and tired of being "drunk" all the time.

[Triniking1234]

Um didn't we just have a whole run where Jen was scared and felt like a victim after the whole thanos things. So wouldn't that also still be a part of Jen. And if SheHulk is a part of her personality wouldn't it stand to reason a lot of those feelings still were there. Or do you expect Jen to be the exact same Jen after being beaten nearly to death by Thanos and then having to deal with a hulk she had little to no control over when she transformed. Or is Jen suppose to stay exactly the same personality wise after going through so much. It's not that hard to connect victim of extreme violence with victim of extreme harrasment. And this isn't the only issue as the prior scan showed Jen in human form reacting aggressively to being cat called so obviously jen herself had feelings about this. Or does she hulk only reflect one part of her personality? You can't have it both ways. Whatever Jen experiences it tends to reason where her mindset is at the time her hulk reflects that. So i'm just going to drop that one more time.

Mariko's run dealt with Jen overcoming her fear of death due to her battle with Thanos and the loss of Bruce since she wanted to continue helping people as both Jennifer Walters the lawyer and She-Hulk the superhero. Jennifer already passed that trial so if Aaron has to back-pedal and say she's still afraid of death that's some bad writing and continuity.

And yes, She-hulk does reflect one part of her personality because that's part of theme of the Hulk characters. Even Pak did that with Cho's Hulk.

[Prof. Warren]

Ummmm, nooooooooooooooo. Don't put words in my mouth.

You're saying that Jen should only be bothered if she's in her Hulk form.

Okay, but still doesn't make it work as well as you guys think it does. This scene would work better if Jen was She-Hulk and it would make the point stronger when it comes up here.

No, it wouldn't. Harassment is still harassment.