Question: Looking for specific comic

[lastoftheblackhawks]

Hello.

New to the forum here. I'm hoping someone might be able to point me to the right backissue.

Right now I'm trying to remember what comic book featured a story where Tim Drake envisioned a dystopian possible future for Gotham with Barbara Gordon acting as some sort of dictator. (Usually I can find pretty much anything, but this one I'm having no luck with.)

Might any of you folks be able to point me to the right comic?

Thanks much.

[Arctic Cyclist]

Hello.

New to the forum here. I'm hoping someone might be able to point me to the right backissue.

Right now I'm trying to remember what comic book featured a story where Tim Drake envisioned a dystopian possible future for Gotham with Barbara Gordon acting as some sort of dictator. (Usually I can find pretty much anything, but this one I'm having no luck with.)

Might any of you folks be able to point me to the right comic?

Thanks much.

It's an else worlds, not one of Tim's many bad futures although he's randomly in it in a role that makes no sense and cements the accusations that he's a Mary Sue.

You're looking for Elseworld's Finest: Supergirl and Batgirl by Barbara Randall Kesel and Matt Haley, 1998. It's worth finding. It's really worth finding and reading, because aside from the random insert of Tim it makes a great deal of narrative sense.

It asks: what if Barbara was six to Bruce's eight, and her parents as off duty cops interfered with the Wayne muggings resulting in their deaths. From there it runs with what is already established about Barbara (biggest badass in the DCU, natural born detective, the best detective, driven, intense, likes bats and the traditional symbolism they represent of rebirth, touch controlling) and runs with the idea that the Waynes adopted her and Bruce helps her become Batgirl. Also examined is how important someone like Robin or Superman (Supergirl in this case) is to anyone in the cowl at keeping them balanced and focused on the future for themselves and others, although that's a side theme. It makes a great contrast to read what Barbara could have become without her father and the multiple young heroes that she mentors. We also see beyond a doubt that she is the most effective member of the Bat Family, and why her Commissioner Gordon actually succeeded in cleaning up Gotham as much as any city of 8 million plus can be cleaned up.

Don't read it for Tim though. And just kinda go "huh" at the uncomfortably close relationship that Bruce and Barbara have considering they've lived together since kindergarten/second grade. Definitely read it for plot and characterization, because it's one of the best Elseworlds out there.

[lastoftheblackhawks]

It's an else worlds, not one of Tim's many bad futures although he's randomly in it in a role that makes no sense and cements the accusations that he's a Mary Sue.

You're looking for Elseworld's Finest: Supergirl and Batgirl by Barbara Randall Kesel and Matt Haley, 1998. It's worth finding. It's really worth finding and reading, because aside from the random insert of Tim it makes a great deal of narrative sense.

It asks: what if Barbara was six to Bruce's eight, and her parents as off duty cops interfered with the Wayne muggings resulting in their deaths. From there it runs with what is already established about Barbara (biggest badass in the DCU, natural born detective, the best detective, driven, intense, likes bats and the traditional symbolism they represent of rebirth, touch controlling) and runs with the idea that the Waynes adopted her and Bruce helps her become Batgirl. Also examined is how important someone like Robin or Superman (Supergirl in this case) is to anyone in the cowl at keeping them balanced and focused on the future for themselves and others, although that's a side theme. It makes a great contrast to read what Barbara could have become without her father and the multiple young heroes that she mentors. We also see beyond a doubt that she is the most effective member of the Bat Family, and why her Commissioner Gordon actually succeeded in cleaning up Gotham as much as any city of 8 million plus can be cleaned up.

Don't read it for Tim though. And just kinda go "huh" at the uncomfortably close relationship that Bruce and Barbara have considering they've lived together since kindergarten/second grade. Definitely read it for plot and characterization, because it's one of the best Elseworlds out there.

Thanks mate. Not quite the one I'm looking for, but this is an interesting one all the same.
The one I'm looking for, I believe the hook was that Tim was asked to develop contingency plans to deal with potential threats in the family. The one with Oracle, I believe, he found particularly scary and referred to that version of Oracle as a dictator.
I think it was just a one-shot in the Robin title from 1993, but I'll be damned if I can find the issue!

[Arctic Cyclist]

Thanks mate. Not quite the one I'm looking for, but this is an interesting one all the same.
The one I'm looking for, I believe the hook was that Tim was asked to develop contingency plans to deal with potential threats in the family. The one with Oracle, I believe, he found particularly scary and referred to that version of Oracle as a dictator.
I think it was just a one-shot in the Robin title from 1993, but I'll be damned if I can find the issue!

Ah. Sounds like Robin 116-120. It's the start of Tim's slide to darkness that we see in Titans of Tomorrow and Red Robin. Basically Bruce gives Tim the gift of paranoia and gaslighting for his sixteenth birthday. It's one of the best, most subtle examples of Bruce as an abuser out there because it showcases how mentally and emotionally abusive Bruce is to everyone around him, including Alfred. Plus we get to see that Jack isn't as horrible of a parent as the fandom makes him out to be, and Tim's last birthday EVER.

It's an interesting arc because it shows Bruce deliberately taking a perfectly good white boy with decent mental balance and shredding his psyche by making him distrust all of his friends and allies for no good reason. It's the start of the division between what Tim fans say he is: a sweet, emphatic kid who wants to do good and plans on having a life outside of crime (fighting and otherwise), and what everyone else says: he's a sociopath. It takes quite a bit more for him to evolve out of Dixon's Everyman into FabNic's Dexter, but this is the first clear sign that Tim's going to become someone that Ra's al Ghul considers lacking a conscious.

Plus: Alfred's acting skills, Tim's canon favorite pizza, Cass being a troll, birthday cake, Steph and Tim as a dynamic dating duo, Evil Oracle, Dick trying and failing to be a voice of reason, and a glove thrown.

[Tzigone]

It's one of the best, most subtle examples of Bruce as an abuser out there because it showcases how mentally and emotionally abusive Bruce is to everyone around him, including Alfred.

We obviously have different perceptions of "subtle." This is one that is so massively huge to me that I have trouble realizing it isn't to other people.

Plus: Alfred's acting skills, Tim's canon favorite pizza, Cass being a troll, birthday cake, Steph and Tim as a dynamic dating duo, Evil Oracle, Dick trying and failing to be a voice of reason, and a glove thrown.

I remember Tim as a pizza-and-Zesti fellow in those days. When did he turn no-food-and-all-coffee, anyway?

[Arctic Cyclist]

We obviously have different perceptions of "subtle." This is one that is so massively huge to me that I have trouble realizing it isn't to other people.

I remember Tim as a pizza-and-Zesti fellow in those days. When did he turn no-food-and-all-coffee, anyway?

Some people are convinced that Bruce is a good father and father figure. Recognizing emotional abuse is hard, particularly when it comes to someone who's supposed to be a hero like Bruce. It's why there's a thread on "Is Bruce a Bad Father in Rebirth," despite all the evidence, even in Tomasi's Batman and Robin with Damian that he's horrifically abusive parent. It's a bit shocking to realize that there are multiple Elsewords, including Flashpoint, that showcase how both his bio child with Talia and Jason both become kind, generous, well adjusted people if they never meet Bruce, or don't meet him until adulthood. Tallant Wayne and Ibn are genetically identical to Damian but are dramatically different characters based on the idea that Talia carried them to term and kept them from Ra's and Bruce for part of their lives (or most in the case of Tallant). Unlike the future Damians we've seen outside of Super Sons, both of those men successfully created families and deep, life long friendships. You see it too with Flashpoint and Bombshells Jason who retains his rad bromance with Talia al Ghul. Both versions die unfairly, Flashpoint Jason still digs himself out of his grave, yet both remain the noble, pure, courageous, self sacrificing spirit Jason had before his death, and neither become killers. Dick is the only one who has a bad future if he never meets Bruce, and yes, I count his becoming Dr Fate in Flashpoint a bad future.

I believe that was during Tim's time in Bludhaven is when coffee becomes his caffeine of choice. As for the not eating that's mostly a fandom and New 52/Rebirth thing. He eats, and eats much healthier during his red and black suit and Red Robin period with a focus on vegetables and protein.

[Tzigone]

Tallant Wayne and Ibn are genetically identical to Damian but are dramatically different characters based on the idea that Talia carried them to term and kept them from Ra's and Bruce for part of their lives (or most in the case of Tallant).

Yeah, but Talia is a canonically very abusive parent, too. I don't like that ignored, either, especially as it's essential to Damian's characterization. And I think that's feasible/consistent with some of her early characterization back in the bronze age, too, though Morrison did take it too far, in my opinion (I draw the line at actual killing of Damian for her). Not consistent with LexCorp. time, but then, neither is Damian's existence.

Some people are convinced that Bruce is a good father and father figure.

Once upon a time, he was. Except for the life-risking sidekick bit. But that was decades ago. He had a resurgence in the early-to-middish 1990s, too. That's still a long, long time ago. And he still slandered Jason during that time (as did everyone).

[nhienphan2808]

Pre-crisis Bruce was a good mentor and father figure, probably because he wasnt that Rich and Powerful and Elite (upper case) and up until 2000, no mid 90s he was more about pushing people away than actively manipulate them to get attached to him. In Tim's case, at that point, he saw Tim a unvaluable asset to him so to keep him he made Tim alienate his other relationships to make sure Tim's only support was him. He is the evil rich bastard you see in dirty media all the time who kidnaps people and cuts them off any control and other resources to their life including their self-esteem to keep them attached to him.

Dick was the only one he never used this tactic on (again, still only before the 2000s,) because for all of Dick's attempts to not be dependent, he knows Dick had no other family and support, and even if he subtly does it, weirdly i see Dick needed that pressure to push himself always and got used to it himself so that he doesn't even see it as evil or abnornal anymore. I also don't see Dick objecting when Bruce uses something less heavy but similar to manipulate Helena (circa No Man 's Land). And since Dick was so nerfed with origins destroyed in the 2000s, he lost the ability and agency to "support" Tim like he used to - written by Devin Grayson when that mess was going on. Having been with Bruce so long and lost everything before that, he doesn't understand Tim himself either ("be grateful to your parents at least they lived" -1994) All of this resulted in Dark!Tim.

I don't know why RR suddenly had this narrative that Tim "knew everything in the first place", "exactly how i thought he would", and all that, but it sure fooled some fans and instead of realising Tim's paranoia, it became the start of "uber genius long term planning and uber goal oriented Tim" in Rebirth on top of "normal nice guy Tim that doesnt know it all but learned" and cover all the fucked up **** done to him.

And he still slandered Jason during that time (as did everyone).

I think it was fpr all of DC to make "the best Robin" look better. But while Bruce and others got corrected by other writers on Jason, Tim was the only one NOT getting fixed and still kept ignorant to the real circumtances leading to Jason's death, not counting the ONE and only 1991 issue when he randomly thinks "I can be like Jason" - that was clumsy as hell DC, you should have come back to Tim's clumsy origins where he had been obsessive - not to a goal involving crimes but to Dick Grayson - and emotionally unaware to everything around him and fixed it.

[Arctic Cyclist]

Yeah, but Talia is a canonically very abusive parent, too. I don't like that ignored, either, especially as it's essential to Damian's characterization. And I think that's feasible/consistent with some of her early characterization back in the bronze age, too, though Morrison did take it too far, in my opinion (I draw the line at actual killing of Damian for her). Not consistent with LexCorp. time, but then, neither is Damian's existence.

Once upon a time, he was. Except for the life-risking sidekick bit. But that was decades ago. He had a resurgence in the early-to-middish 1990s, too. That's still a long, long time ago. And he still slandered Jason during that time (as did everyone).

Bringing up that Talia is very abusive to Damian and we shouldn't ignore it in the context of Tallent and Ibn is a bit like bringing up that it canon in The Dark Knight, The Dark Knight Returns, and All Star Batman and Robin that Bruce is a pedophile rapist who kidnaps, tortures and brainwashes Dick then kicks him out at eighteen to do the same to Jason and it's important to remember that, people should never forget that Bruce is a pedophile who likes pubescent boys.

Or it's like saying that because there's a reality in Whatever Happened to Batman where Selina decides to watch Bruce slowly bleed to death because she's angry she had to stop but he never did means that Selina Kyle is always going to be a bitter, vengeful murderer.

Talia is not a flat, static character like most other DC creations. Every action or inaction she does has consequences, and unlike the majority of DC characters, we see her constantly suffer the consequences of her actions. If you sit down and read cover to cover everything she appears in, her story is a fascinating exploration of torture porn and a woman developing severe mental illnesses due to the abuse she experiences and the way people, including Bruce, force her into a role that she did not chose, does not want, and doesn't fit. It's spread out over time, and requires a great deal of hunting to find, along with a tenth grade reading comprehension level, so it's a bit beyond what stereotypes say comic fans are capable of.

That's why it's possible to reconcile Bronze Age Talia with Morrison Talia, because she's not sane, nor is she allowed to enjoy her insanity like Harley Quinn is. Talia gets the scary sort of insanity that we see in the real world, where she firmly has the delusion that the only way to protect and save her child is to murder him because Damian chooses Bruce (actually Dick) over her.

In all fairness though, with all things considered, it's probably not a delusion if you look at how ofter people like Dick, Tim, and Jason all go crazy in various futures, and that there are futures where Selina watches Bruce bleed out because she's a bitter ex, and futures everyone abandoning and avoid Bruce, publicly avowing how they wish they'd never know him being de rigor. Let's face it, all of Damian's bad futures are because he stayed with Bruce and develops severe depression and self esteem issues due to Bruce's emotional abuse which results in his failure to stop a pretty simple plot.

Murdering Damian might have been the right call since even the various Helena Waynes we've seen all have C-PTSD and other mental health issues due to how she was forced by her parents into their lifestyle to avoid being neglected.






Although it is important to remember that Frank Miller writes Bruce as a pedophile, therefore it's likely he's a pedophile in every universe as he does utilize emotional abuse to control the pubescents and adolescents in his life and keep them emotionally and mentally dependent on him. Especially since, you know, the current Batman run by Tom King is really embracing Miller and establishing that it's the canon that matters. Plus it was implied in Dark Knights Metal: The Resistance and Dark Knights: The Batman Who Laughs that Bruce probably raped Damian before dosing him with the Joker toxin, and probably continued sexually abuse Damian and the dark Robins up until Damian killed his counterpart. Dick's visions implied that multiple Bruces really enjoy violating all the Robins, especially Damian. Since you are saying that Talia in every universe, even the ones where she's explicitly a good parent who keeps her child safe from harm and violence for 24 years, is abusive you should also acknowledge that Bruce enjoys raping kids, especially prepubescent and pubescent boys.

It is very important that people don't forget or ignore that canonically Talia is always abusive and therefore Bruce is always a pedophile.

[Godlike13]

Um, what?
...

[Arctic Cyclist]

Um, what?
...

Basically, if you are going to insist that every version of Talia is canonically abusive regardless of the actual canon for that universe, than you need to also acknowledge that Bruce is also a monster in ever universe regardless of the actual canon.

There are universes where it canon that Talia al Ghul is an ideal and successful mother. There are more universes where she and Bruce had consensual non drugged sex multiple times than there are where she is a rapist. And yes, there are several universes where she is an abusive parent.

There are universes where Bruce is a monster who sexually assaults teenagers and pubescent boys (Frank Miller belongs in the same category as Piers Anthony as far as I'm concerned), and there are universes where it is utterly inconceivable to even think that he could hurt a child like that. There are universes where he was targeted as a child by serial killers and the reason he survived was because of his parents murders (Batman: Gothic, later referenced in Streets of Gotham). There are universes where his parents were killed at the order of the Ra's al Ghul and the Court of Owls (Gotham), child trafficking rings due to Martha's investigations (Batman: The Ultimate Evil, a universe where the author gave the only acceptable justification for excluding Robin, which is also a universe nodded to in Legends of the Dark Knight, and even the main universes as it developed the modern Martha Kane as well as the Kane family), universes where the Joker killed the Waynes (the Batman movie), and universes where it was a random mugging. Every single one of those universes creates a slightly different Bruce Wayne.

There are universes where Bruce and Talia end up together (Superman/Batman Generations and The Kingdom) and help guide the world into a golden age of peace and prosperity. There's a universe where we learn that Talia al Ghul really is the only person keeping the world clipping along with all threats in check and why her marrying Batman is a truly terrible thing (Brotherhood of the Bat). There are more universes where Talia ends up becoming her father's host body, or dying (Arkham, Injustice, Batman Beyond multiple canons).

There are universes where Bruce ends up with his childhood BFF, Zatanna. There are two really bizarre universe where Zatanna is Dick's age. There are universes where Selina is Dick's age, more where Talia is Dick's age.

One of the universal constants so far appears to be that Talia and Jason, should they meet, have a cool big sister/little brother type relationship. Flashpoint and Bombshells really push how without Bruce in their lives, both people turn out better, although with Talia it really takes separating her from her father. Another universal constant with the exception of the animated Batman the Brave and the Bold, is should Bruce and Talia meet they always have an instant connection and attraction, not so with any of Bruce's other love interests.

There are universes where Tim becomes Batman and it's always portrayed as a bad thing, there are more universes where Tim gets out, has kids, and leads a happy life, and even some we see glimpses of where Tim gets back into maintaining a healthy work/life/vigilante balance.

There is even one universe, I kid you not, where Pamela Isley is not a serial rapist which is pretty mind-blowing considering that even Batman: the Animated Series left that part of her core characterization complete with a Gotham Adventures issue where she makes jokes about how she prefers teenagers with Dick in highly sexualized situations. It's gets super dark if you remember that all the kids she took in during No Man's Land came down with various diseases because of the ways, and this was said on page, she touched them.

There's a fantastic Chris Burnham short comic in one of the collections I own that shows all of the main universe new 52 Batfamily pre-Eternal attempting to burn down the cave with Alfred's hundred and something birthday cake sans Terry who is specifically discussed between Damian, Bruce, Dick and Barbara about when Damian will retire as Batman entirely and let Terry take over as Bruce did for Dick and Dick did for Damian. Tim's still Red Robin, Jason's still the Red Hood, and both men make jokes about being able to fit into their uniforms.

What it boils down to is if you didn't read the comics and are just going by what is widely recognized as the weakest, most poorly written animated movies to be released for your ideas on who the characters are then maybe you don't know what you are talking about and should just not make a comment. It comes off as stupid, ill informed, racist, and misogynistic. Which I'm sure wasn't the intention, but that's how it is when people choose to ignore actual canon for a particular universe. Even Grant Morrison retconned out a lot of his pre-New 52 characterization of Talia al Ghul, made it very dubious if Bruce actually drank the drugged drink before shagging Talia, if at all, and showed that she was someone who started out good and cracked due to years of abuse from all the men in her life, including Bruce in Batman Incorporated #2.

[Swallowtail]

There are universes where Bruce is a monster who sexually assaults teenagers and pubescent boys (Frank Miller belongs in the same category as Piers Anthony as far as I'm concerned), and there are universes where it is utterly inconceivable to even think that he could hurt a child like that. There are universes where he was targeted as a child by serial killers and the reason he survived was because of his parents murders (Batman: Gothic, later referenced in Streets of Gotham). There are universes where his parents were killed at the order of the Ra's al Ghul and the Court of Owls (Gotham), child trafficking rings due to Martha's investigations (Batman: The Ultimate Evil, a universe where the author gave the only acceptable justification for excluding Robin, which is also a universe nodded to in Legends of the Dark Knight, and even the main universes as it developed the modern Martha Kane as well as the Kane family), universes where the Joker killed the Waynes (the Batman movie), and universes where it was a random mugging. Every single one of those universes creates a slightly different Bru

There are universes where Bruce and Talia end up together (Superman/Batman Generations and The Kingdom) and help guide the world into a golden age of peace and prosperity. There's a universe where we learn that Talia al Ghul really is the only person keeping the world clipping along with all threats in check and why her marrying Batman is a truly terrible thing (Brotherhood of the Bat). There are more universes where Talia ends up becoming her father's host body, or dying (Arkham, Injustice, Batman Beyond multiple canons).

There are universes where Bruce ends up with his childhood BFF, Zatanna. There are two really bizarre universe where Zatanna is Dick's age. There are universes where Selina is Dick's age, more where Talia is Dick's age.

One of the universal constants so far appears to be that Talia and Jason, should they meet, have a cool big sister/little brother type relationship.

Do you have sources for these please? Bruce Jr’s mother in generations is not identified and Ib’n’s childhood was hardly ideal.

I’m not sure of the Talia and Jason thing either. Aside from Bombshells where she felt sorry for him for getting turned into an abomination, the only depiction of their relationship I know involved her stoking his worst interests and helping him embrace his Oedipus Complex.

P.S: that Detective Comic issue is by Ian Bertram and Peter Tomasi, not Burnam. It’s Bruce’s birthday, Terry isn’t mentioned, Jason doesn’t appear and no one jokes about their suits fitting.