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  1. #226
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    The problem with OMD-Peter gone Emo is that Kindred was involved with Mysterio's resurrection in David's FNSM which happened before the deal. So timeline doesn't fit. And as with Uncle Ben, do we really want the Spider-Man of AF#15 transformed into a vengeful murderer and torturer?

    Ezekiel fits, Best of Enemies Harry fits, Gwen Stacy fits timeline-wise. All three were dead, all three knew Mary Jane (Ezekiel had dinner with them after all). Two of them are directly connected to Norman Osborn, while one you can imagine as being connected through business ties (Ezekiel).

    From storytelling impact and suspense perspective, I think it has to be Gwen Stacy. Ezekiel is a surprise but also a character readers won't know and would have to be prepped up on (the same way Roderick Kingsley made appearances in ASM and satellites before Stern's Hobgoblin Lives to make it less of "oh-yeah-that-guy-from-that-thing-with-the-thing"). OG Harry Osborn would raise issues about who's the Harry Osborn running around, and would also negate the little growth Harry had in that time (such as changing his name to Harry Lyman and all) and likewise, we haven't seen Harry in Spencer's run, so even if he was Kindred no emotional stakes are sold to us about "the Harry we know and liked isn't Harry" and so on.

    So it has to be Gwen. You don't need much to refer to Gwen. It's an instant hook. You can also make Gwen into a vengeful villain without really changing or ruining a character significantly. If anything her becoming a villain is consistent to the character in the page when she was alive. It would lend poignancy to that. And as anyone who has seen Mask of the Phantasm can tell you, it wouldn't be the first time a mystery villain paraded with a dude's voice and was addressed as "He" to turn out to be a dame.

  2. #227
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    I am shocked that you would suggest Spencer would steal inspiration from King. He isn't into crappy fan fic. He makes up his own shit. Lol.

  3. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The problem with OMD-Peter gone Emo is that Kindred was involved with Mysterio's resurrection in David's FNSM which happened before the deal. So timeline doesn't fit. And as with Uncle Ben, do we really want the Spider-Man of AF#15 transformed into a vengeful murderer and torturer?

    Ezekiel fits, Best of Enemies Harry fits, Gwen Stacy fits timeline-wise. All three were dead, all three knew Mary Jane (Ezekiel had dinner with them after all). Two of them are directly connected to Norman Osborn, while one you can imagine as being connected through business ties (Ezekiel).

    From storytelling impact and suspense perspective, I think it has to be Gwen Stacy. Ezekiel is a surprise but also a character readers won't know and would have to be prepped up on (the same way Roderick Kingsley made appearances in ASM and satellites before Stern's Hobgoblin Lives to make it less of "oh-yeah-that-guy-from-that-thing-with-the-thing"). OG Harry Osborn would raise issues about who's the Harry Osborn running around, and would also negate the little growth Harry had in that time (such as changing his name to Harry Lyman and all) and likewise, we haven't seen Harry in Spencer's run, so even if he was Kindred no emotional stakes are sold to us about "the Harry we know and liked isn't Harry" and so on.

    So it has to be Gwen. You don't need much to refer to Gwen. It's an instant hook. You can also make Gwen into a vengeful villain without really changing or ruining a character significantly. If anything her becoming a villain is consistent to the character in the page when she was alive. It would lend poignancy to that. And as anyone who has seen Mask of the Phantasm can tell you, it wouldn't be the first time a mystery villain paraded with a dude's voice and was addressed as "He" to turn out to be a dame.
    Your pretty close to persuading me on Gwen. One can hand wave any of the CC stuff away pretty easily. I think there are some minor holes here and there in the theory (the statements about Norman in ASM 30 are either supremely intimate and gross as befits Sins Past or completely ahistorical for how Gwen thought about or interacted with Norman if Sins Past is ignored) but I think your winnowing method (will the reader be surprised) is an important one. Some of my guesses/thoughts (Macendale, Richard Fisk, Ned Leeds) all fit aspects of the clues/hints, but not one of them would have an emotional impact for anyone that came to Spider-man after the first Raimi movie (which was a long time ago).

    I don't really believe this one too much, but one guess that would be surprising, fits the timeline, and would hit some out-of-universe comments would be 616 Baby May. Why/how she seems familiar with Mysterio, Fisk, etc., is a huge problem*, and why she'd have been in Hell is a deal breaker, but the wall-clinging, the anger about a moment of personal intimacy (ID reveal) with Black Cat, worrying about MJ being killed, thinking it should just be Kindred and Peter at the end (and the truth of what [he] did), hating and demeaning Norman. They all check out. Again, I don't really believe this, but it'd be a ballsy and interesting reveal.

    Another point about Harry - if Kindred is real Harry and BND Harry is something else (clone, shade, whatever), that has varying degrees of sad implications for Stanley. That kid already has all the decks stacked against him . . .

    *If you create a reason for her to be in Hell, then interacting with/being informed about Spidey's life and villains by Macendale, etc. is not out of bounds
    Blue text denotes sarcasm

  4. #229
    Fantastic Member RD155's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The problem with OMD-Peter gone Emo is that Kindred was involved with Mysterio's resurrection in David's FNSM which happened before the deal. So timeline doesn't fit. And as with Uncle Ben, do we really want the Spider-Man of AF#15 transformed into a vengeful murderer and torturer?

    Ezekiel fits, Best of Enemies Harry fits, Gwen Stacy fits timeline-wise. All three were dead, all three knew Mary Jane (Ezekiel had dinner with them after all). Two of them are directly connected to Norman Osborn, while one you can imagine as being connected through business ties (Ezekiel).

    From storytelling impact and suspense perspective, I think it has to be Gwen Stacy. Ezekiel is a surprise but also a character readers won't know and would have to be prepped up on (the same way Roderick Kingsley made appearances in ASM and satellites before Stern's Hobgoblin Lives to make it less of "oh-yeah-that-guy-from-that-thing-with-the-thing"). OG Harry Osborn would raise issues about who's the Harry Osborn running around, and would also negate the little growth Harry had in that time (such as changing his name to Harry Lyman and all) and likewise, we haven't seen Harry in Spencer's run, so even if he was Kindred no emotional stakes are sold to us about "the Harry we know and liked isn't Harry" and so on.

    So it has to be Gwen. You don't need much to refer to Gwen. It's an instant hook. You can also make Gwen into a vengeful villain without really changing or ruining a character significantly. If anything her becoming a villain is consistent to the character in the page when she was alive. It would lend poignancy to that. And as anyone who has seen Mask of the Phantasm can tell you, it wouldn't be the first time a mystery villain paraded with a dude's voice and was addressed as "He" to turn out to be a dame.
    Ezekiel does fit but really just like you said readers don’t really know who that is. I really don’t see that having this amazing emotional impact. Spencer has to knock this reveal out of the park because of the slow build up for the character ...Ezekiel just wouldn’t cut it for new readers....I’m not against it being Gwen Stacy but “Kindred” has been referred to as a “he” multiple times already. Yes granted it could be a little trick Spencer is playing but at this moment I’m just going with the material we have presented to us. Based on that Kindred is a man at this point.

  5. #230
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desmark View Post
    Lol let's hope so. His Hydra Cap stuff shows he is game for writing any storyline though it does seem unlikely even he will go to such extents as King has over at DC.
    Ben being Kindred would be like if Secret Empire ended with Hydra Cap being regular 616 Cap the entire time (we know he's a different person/alt reality since his second appearance so its not the same thing)

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    From storytelling impact and suspense perspective, I think it has to be Gwen Stacy. Ezekiel is a surprise but also a character readers won't know and would have to be prepped up on (the same way Roderick Kingsley made appearances in ASM and satellites before Stern's Hobgoblin Lives to make it less of "oh-yeah-that-guy-from-that-thing-with-the-thing"). OG Harry Osborn would raise issues about who's the Harry Osborn running around, and would also negate the little growth Harry had in that time (such as changing his name to Harry Lyman and all) and likewise, we haven't seen Harry in Spencer's run, so even if he was Kindred no emotional stakes are sold to us about "the Harry we know and liked isn't Harry" and so on.

    So it has to be Gwen. You don't need much to refer to Gwen. It's an instant hook. You can also make Gwen into a vengeful villain without really changing or ruining a character significantly. If anything her becoming a villain is consistent to the character in the page when she was alive. It would lend poignancy to that. And as anyone who has seen Mask of the Phantasm can tell you, it wouldn't be the first time a mystery villain paraded with a dude's voice and was addressed as "He" to turn out to be a dame.
    To also give the gender thing some credit, even Menace, if I'm remembering correctly, was addressed with male pronouns before being revealed to be Lily, so it wouldn't be the first time they did that swap in a Spider-Man mystery villain.

    I can see it being her since alot of it does fit, I just don't buy her as much as some of the others like Harry, Ezekiel, (even Twisted-Peter would be a bigger bombshell and I've seen explanations that would make it fit). And just for me, making the big bad just "scorned lover" feels a bit uninteresting. It's why I wouldn't mind if it turned out to be Carlie (ie: she was always a fake/disguise since the beginning), because that at least has an extra layer of twist to the trope.
    Last edited by Inversed; 09-24-2019 at 07:28 AM.
    Current Reading List: Amazing Spider-Man, Spider-Gwen: Ghost Spider, Sonic The Hedgehog, Absolute Carnage, Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-Man, Gwenpool Strikes Back, Runaways, The White Trees

  6. #231
    Fantastic Member Spidey5640's Avatar
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    Right now, especially after reading the preview of ASM #30, I'm going with Harry. The detailed comments about Norman, about protecting MJ (she and Harry used to date), about him and Pete, even knowing who Mendell Stromm is all seem to fit for me. His connection to Mysterio could be related to when Norman enlisted Mysterio to help cover Harry's death by providing a duplicate body. I admit I don't see Harry going to Hell even if he did die previously but that may all be a psychological fantasy or analogy. I REALLY don't see either Uncle Ben or Gwen going there either.

    Don't get how he could make the Kingpin kneel but then again, I don't see that with any of the other possibilities mentioned either. The gender neutral outfit is reminiscent of Menace and could be a cover for a female but I don't know if Spencer would re-use something Slott did.

    Could be wrong, but if I am I sure hope it's not Gwen. She's been dragged through the mud enough already.

  7. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidey5640 View Post
    Right now, especially after reading the preview of ASM #30, I'm going with Harry. The detailed comments about Norman, about protecting MJ (she and Harry used to date), about him and Pete, even knowing who Mendell Stromm is all seem to fit for me. His connection to Mysterio could be related to when Norman enlisted Mysterio to help cover Harry's death by providing a duplicate body. I admit I don't see Harry going to Hell even if he did die previously but that may all be a psychological fantasy or analogy. I REALLY don't see either Uncle Ben or Gwen going there either.

    Don't get how he could make the Kingpin kneel but then again, I don't see that with any of the other possibilities mentioned either. The gender neutral outfit is reminiscent of Menace and could be a cover for a female but I don't know if Spencer would re-use something Slott did.

    Could be wrong, but if I am I sure hope it's not Gwen. She's been dragged through the mud enough already.
    It cannot be Gwen. Her soul was brought back from the dead in CC in the new cloned body.

  8. #233
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    Kindred sitting in his gamer chair in front of his PC with a bottle of Mountain Dew Baja Blast, a bag of cool ranch Doritos, some chicken tendies, and a headset waiting for Mary Jane to die so he can force Peter to play Counter Strike with him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorrek VIII
    What if the Kree and Skrull quarantined in the same rooms together? Aha ha, just kidding... unless...?

  9. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    Ben being Kindred would be like if Secret Empire ended with Hydra Cap being regular 616 Cap the entire time (we know he's a different person/alt reality since his second appearance so its not the same thing)



    To also give the gender thing some credit, even Menace, if I'm remembering correctly, was addressed with male pronouns before being revealed to be Lily, so it wouldn't be the first time they did that swap in a Spider-Man mystery villain.

    I can see it being her since alot of it does fit, I just don't buy her as much as some of the others like Harry, Ezekiel, (even Twisted-Peter would be a bigger bombshell and I've seen explanations that would make it fit). And just for me, making the big bad just "scorned lover" feels a bit uninteresting. It's why I wouldn't mind if it turned out to be Carlie (ie: she was always a fake/disguise since the beginning), because that at least has an extra layer of twist to the trope.
    Yeah, but that's nothing he can't handwave later. Just for example the Ben Parker from the Identity Wars storyline could masquerade as the prime earth Ben which could be revealed later on in the climax. Only difference would be when the reveal would occur.

  10. #235
    Mighty Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    From storytelling impact and suspense perspective, I think it has to be Gwen Stacy. Ezekiel is a surprise but also a character readers won't know and would have to be prepped up on (the same way Roderick Kingsley made appearances in ASM and satellites before Stern's Hobgoblin Lives to make it less of "oh-yeah-that-guy-from-that-thing-with-the-thing"). OG Harry Osborn would raise issues about who's the Harry Osborn running around, and would also negate the little growth Harry had in that time (such as changing his name to Harry Lyman and all) and likewise, we haven't seen Harry in Spencer's run, so even if he was Kindred no emotional stakes are sold to us about "the Harry we know and liked isn't Harry" and so on.
    The biggest question that is raised by making Harry be Kindred is, if the Harry who's around is Kindred, why's he pretending to be nice, and why only start to act now?

    Then again, since he bitched at Mysterio for doing nothing until now, it's possible he was just waiting for Mysterio to do something, he didn't, then he lost his patience and decided to act.

    So it has to be Gwen. You don't need much to refer to Gwen. It's an instant hook. You can also make Gwen into a vengeful villain without really changing or ruining a character significantly. If anything her becoming a villain is consistent to the character in the page when she was alive. It would lend poignancy to that. And as anyone who has seen Mask of the Phantasm can tell you, it wouldn't be the first time a mystery villain paraded with a dude's voice and was addressed as "He" to turn out to be a dame.
    Well, when Mysterio was talking about his experience in hell, he said a man was torturing him, who then became a demon, so that gives more weight that Kindred really is a male, but then again, it's possible Gwen had a disguise is hell too.

    As for Kindred not ruining her character, I don't see how, she hated Spider-Man, but loved Peter, and her clone in Slott's ASM even clears up that when she learned that Peter is Spidey, she felt died feeling betrayed, but still loved him, plus torturing Mysterio and killing an innocent who was brainwashed just because he knew her name? Yeah, her saying she didn't enjoy killing him only makes it slightly less bad.

    Truthfuly speaking, between Gwen/Ezekiel/Harry, all 3 of them would have their characters ruined to a certain extent by making them be Kindred, question is how much doing something like that would be acceptable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan84 View Post
    It cannot be Gwen. Her soul was brought back from the dead in CC in the new cloned body.
    That was never confirmed though, while the clones in Clone Conspiracy somehow have the souls of the originals, I doubt the clones of people who are alive would have even a part of the souls of the originals, so I don't think Jackal's clones, Prowler's and the Peter in Otto's body had the same souls, so if Gwen really is Kindred, then the clone Gwen is just a(nother) clone.

    Anyways, with all of that being said, it's clear who Kindred is, it's spoilers:
    that actress who was pretending to be aunt May for a while
    end of spoilers


  11. #236
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    I'd rule Harry out. Spencer spent a lot of time and effort trying to restore DeMatteis' character beats from KLH and SOUL OF THE HUNTER in a post GRIM HUNT landscape, so no way does he undermine Harry sacrificing himself and making peace with Peter.

    I'm going to say it's Ned, because

    A) Spencer's a huge fan of KLH, and Ned's death kicked off Peter's nightmarish struggle with his own mortality
    B) Ned wasn't exactly on great terms with Peter at the time of his death
    C) Ned's a crime reporter, meaning he'd have dirt on Kingpin and the kind of extortion skillset that might help him work his way up the food chain in hell
    D) Ned could have discovered Peter's true identity before he died, thus causing him to blame Peter for not saving him
    E) Peter was Betty's first love, flirted with the possibility of a romantic relationship with her during her marriage to Ned, and ultimately found happiness with MJ right after Ned died. So yeah, plenty of reason to be obsessed with the couple that got what he never did. Which also makes one wonder...

    What if Ned/Kindred was actually behind OMD? I mean, was it really worth Mephisto's time, or did Kindred call in a favor with the big guy...

  12. #237
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    ....What if Ned/Kindred was actually behind OMD? I mean, was it really worth Mephisto's time, or did Kindred call in a favor with the big guy...

    Even though I don't think Kindred is Ned because Kindred seems to care about MJ (on some level), I've been wondering the same thing about OMD.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  13. #238
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    As for Kindred not ruining her character, I don't see how, she hated Spider-Man, but loved Peter, and her clone in Slott's ASM even clears up that when she learned that Peter is Spidey, she felt died feeling betrayed, but still loved him,
    We can slot (heh) the latter down to the clone technology making an error and mistake and so on, or that the technology revived the Gwenclone who I believe died in Spider-Island and not OG Gwen. I don't believe for a second any of the figures in clone conspiracy are the real deal, and that whole soul crap mumbo-jumbo just can't be true. That also applies to Billy...I don't think the Billy Connors in Spencer's run is the same kid from before SHED. I think it's a clone with synthetic memories, and included among those memories is the knowledge that the Lizard ate the original Billy. The clone has been repressing that but it's there all along inside him.

    ...plus torturing Mysterio and killing an innocent who was brainwashed just because he knew her name? Yeah, her saying she didn't enjoy killing him only makes it slightly less bad.
    Gwen Stacy had a pretty nasty and violent streak and she notably allied with a right-wing authoritarian DA who was more or less offering to give her Spider-Man dead on a silver platter.

    Truthfuly speaking, between Gwen/Ezekiel/Harry, all 3 of them would have their characters ruined to a certain extent by making them be Kindred, question is how much doing something like that would be acceptable.
    Both Red Hood and Winter Soldier were introduced as antagonistic figures before developing into anti-heroes so maybe something like that can happen with the hypothetical Kindred-Gwen, who knows. There's definitely a problem if teen sidekicks with jokey reputations like Bucky and Jason come back from the dead all grizzled and gritty, but women stuffed in fridge cannot.

    Anyways, with all of that being said, it's clear who Kindred is, it's spoilers:
    that actress who was pretending to be aunt May for a while
    end of spoilers
    I am fully aware that my theory could be wrong and any theory offered by anyone else could be right. All that matters is how Spencer pulls it off. Execution can still surprise and have an effect even among the audience that guesses or sees it coming. So it wouldn't bother me if Kindred is someone else, or if it turns out it's who you say it is.

  14. #239
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Even though I don't think Kindred is Ned because Kindred seems to care about MJ (on some level), I've been wondering the same thing about OMD.
    Well, really, so far we've only seen Kindred directly harm people who are known criminals. (Oh, wait, there was the psychiatrist who turned out not to be Mysterio…) So it's possible that Ned thinks of himself as the pretty decent guy here, basically just continuing his crime reporting work, part of which involves exposing Peter Parker for what he thinks he truly is. Don't know if he feels any kind of bond with MJ or if he mostly sees himself as the guy keeping her from getting hurt by Peter.

    Also of note--the letters N-E-D are in the name KINDRED! C'mon people!!!

  15. #240
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Well, really, so far we've only seen Kindred directly harm people who are known criminals. (Oh, wait, there was the psychiatrist who turned out not to be Mysterio…) So it's possible that Ned thinks of himself as the pretty decent guy here, basically just continuing his crime reporting work, part of which involves exposing Peter Parker for what he thinks he truly is. Don't know if he feels any kind of bond with MJ or if he mostly sees himself as the guy keeping her from getting hurt by Peter.

    Also of note--the letters N-E-D are in the name KINDRED! C'mon people!!!
    Yeah, I still don't think so. Kindred's connections to MJ and Peter feel more personal than any connections Ned shared with either. Kindred could be Harry or Gwen or (please no) Uncle Ben but Ned or Ezekiel, I don't see it. But we'll see.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

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