Kindred Speculation

[Snoop Dogg]

Harry's the red herring. He didn't drop the juice in an event tie-in.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

One could easily argue referring to either Harry or Gwen in the third person could be a Darth Vader "That name no longer has any meaning" kind of deal. It'd be different if Kindred had said, "Gwen and I were scared of you" or something like that, but I think all the text works in a "I'm no longer that person" kind of way. The conversational tone seems wrong for either Harry or Gwen, though - you'd think the emotion of the speech would be more raw considering his great effect on their deaths.

This is the second time Kindred has said something like "Who am I to judge?" which seems like a character tick worth considering. Referring to Peter, et al. as children leads me to think of someone older (Captain Stacy, for example), but I can't think of who would match the tone of voice and more detached remembering. Stromm, maybe, and the one died in the first arc was actually a clone of some kind?

Considering he refers to Gwen in the third person, that seems to imply it's not her (he's talking to doped up Norman/himself essentially so has no real reason to lie).

"The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi".

Again it could be Gwen still...but it could be someone else too.

I like the flashback and Ottley's flashback take on Gwen is interesting.

[Lukmendes]

The one relevant detail I can take from this issue about Kindred is how he seems old, since he called the other characters "children", on the other hand, maybe he called them "children" because Kindred is mentioning that Norman traumatizes them when they're younger.

He also mentioned Gwen in the third person, making it possible that it's not her, but then again, she could've gone through a "I'm not that person anymore" kind of development, on the other hand, Kindred killed an innocent because Mysterio told his name to that person, so even if Kindred abandoned their human identity, the name is still important enough to him.

Basicaly, we may only be getting clues depending on how you interpret Kindred's wording, if he's talking about the characters being children overall, as in, him thinking they're young, then that'd mean he's someone significantly older than Peter, if not then it's nothing relevant, him talking about Gwen in the third persons also may be pointing that it's not her, but like I said above, could be just a "I'm not that person anymore", but if that's the case, he still cares enough to not want other people to know.

If anything, this paranoia of not wanting others to know his name can give weight to this theory of Kindred being an alternate Peter.

Also, there's one detail that may be getting overlooked, in ASM#25, we get the reveal that Mysterio was using that "Ludwig" disguise, which Kindred tells us, it could be just a fanservice to Ditko era, we even get flashbacks to when Mysterio used them, but whenever we have Kindred talks about the past, it seems to be around the Ditko and Romita era, so maybe, Kindred is someone from that era, and maybe he knew Mysterio enough to know about that disguise, and didn't find out about it because of his powers.

Oh yeah, for anyone curious, the party flashback is from ASM#105:

https://i.imgur.com/OMRAEhf.png

https://i.imgur.com/YImuJ4a.png

https://i.imgur.com/GHNEq1O.png

[Chubistian]

I would love for Kindred to be Harry. I've a soft spot for Harry as the Green Goblin thanks to Dematteis and it would be nice to put a twist to him being alive nowadays that also mantains canon in some way his death in Spectacular Spider-Man #200. Since Mysterio was behind the plot of simulating Harry's death, it fits that now he's a big player in Kindred's plans. If Kindred is Harry it would explain the whole monologue about his old fear of Norman (though Kindred mentions that he was scare of Norman with or without the mask, and I don't know if Harry was ever aware of Norman's alter ego before his death. I think not, but with so many retcons, one never knows). Still, I think Harry has every element of a red herring and it would be weird (though possible) that Spencer is delivering such a clear candidate after months of an almost full secrecy

[Lukmendes]

I would love for Kindred to be Harry. I've a soft spot for Harry as the Green Goblin thanks to Dematteis and it would be nice to put a twist to him being alive nowadays that also mantains canon in some way his death in Spectacular Spider-Man #200. Since Mysterio was behind the plot of simulating Harry's death, it fits that now he's a big player in Kindred's plans. If Kindred is Harry it would explain the whole monologue about his old fear of Norman (though Kindred mentions that he was scare of Norman with or without the mask, and I don't know if Harry was ever aware of Norman's alter ego before his death. I think not, but with so many retcons, one never knows). Still, I think Harry has every element of a red herring and it would be weird (though possible) that Spencer is delivering such a clear candidate after months of an almost full secrecy

Oh yeah, that's a good point, at least until Norman's death, I don't even remember Harry and Green Goblin meeting, at least once it was because of Harry's presence that the "Norman" personality returned even (Harry was unconscious when that happened), everytime Green Goblin showed up it was to attack Spidey, only the last time he attacked someone else, and it was Gwen.

[RyanParkerMan]

I've been thinking lately about Kindred, the newest arch-foe for Spider-Man. This guy is bad news all around, and is one of the most terrifying new characters introduced in the mythos in a while. Created by Nick Spencer, Ryan Ottley, and Humberto Ramos in Amazing Spider-Man (vol. 5) #1, he has shown up in a handful of issues for various reasons.

Here's what his appearances have been like so far:
* [ASM #1] He's the one who brought Mysterio back as far back as Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man (vol. 1) #12 and was interested in partnering with the Other to corrupt Peter Parker; He has Mysterio under a mysterious deal to manipulate/torture Peter; He calls Peter "Pete", suggesting a familiarity with him. Only Peter's friends call him Pete; He has demonic powers and can "drag someone to Hell"; He has a fascination with centipedes.

* [ASM #4-5] He made a deal with Mendel Stromm to "fulfill his heart's desire", which was for Stromm to be seen as superior to Osborn; to that end, he created an army of Tri-Sentinels. Stromm, thinking that he succeeded, was killed by Kindred because it was the "rules of the game"; during this time, he also mentioned that he knows what it's like to "live in another man's shadow." He leaves Stromm's body for Peter to find, as Stromm can only say "Guess my name".

* [ASM #7] He appears familiar to Wilson Fisk, having previously appeared to him. He then tells Fisk to leave Peter off-limits, as it's "the rules". When he reveals Vanessa to Fisk, Kindred says that she was a drinker, "but I'm not one to judge." Then, in a power move, he makes Kingpin bow to him.

* [ASM #10] He is visibly upset at Peter revealing his identity to Felicia Hardy, Black Cat. He mentions that Peter "drags everyone in his own Hell" but that it will soon be just the two of them.

* [ASM #17] Peter has a vision of MJ dead in her apartment as Kraven III taunts him.

* [ASM #18] Kindred narrates this issue, talking about nature and the primal rage of it all as it fits the theme of "Hunted". He makes a comment about he wants to "take care of MJ" while Peter's away, admiring her compassion towards a centipede.

* [ASM #23] Peter rushes to MJ's and finds that she's relatively unharmed. Kindred restates his desire to protect MJ, and says that she'll die because of Peter's choices and actions.

* [ASM #24] Mysterio speaks with his psychiatrist, who talks to him about the time he died. He reveals that while he was in Hell, he was endlessly tortured by the man who would be Kindred and that Kindred had climbed the ranks of Hell to become a demon (suggesting he was not previously a demon). When the psychiatrist forces Mysterio to say Kindred's name, the latter bursts through and "apologizes" to Mysterio before killing him. He says that he "knows what it's like to have a secret". Afterwards, he gives a speech to Peter who is witnessing these events in his dream, and mentions that he takes no joy in killing, and he's looking for Peter to "guess his name". He claims that it'll just be "me and you, like it should have been all along. Then we can face the truth together. The truth of what you did." Then he gives Peter his "name" of Kindred.

* [ASM #30] As an addendum to this issue, we know that in the preview for next week's #30 that Kindred then goes to Norman Osborn's cell in Ravencroft and mentions how he could kill him and laugh "like he used to". He mentions how terrifying Norman was "in and out of the mask" (suggesting a familiarity with Osborn and Peter) and how he made him feel very powerless.

* [ASM #25] Here, Kindred realizes Mysterio's ruse and mentions how he's a "slave to continuity", and mentions that he doesn't like killing innocent people. He gives the indication that this "deal" has been given to multiple people. He tells Mysterio that there's "something you want and there's something somebody else wants that I'm going to deny them." He then hands Mysterio a script for a movie, which is apparently impressive enough to get picked up immediately. Later on, we see Kindred mentioning "sins still remembered" and that "we all have scars" showing visible arm holes. He repeats the idea of he and Peter meeting face-to-face, and comments on his plan to go after the other Spider-heroes.

The reason why I outlined all of this is that each clue is deliberate and important. Knowing a bit about Spencer, he doesn't do anything without thinking it through. So this evidently all probably reveals who Kindred is before he's officially revealed. Some of his lines are particularly telling, and if we look at them, I think we may be able to make an accurate guess.

What do you guys think of all of this? Who do you believe is Kindred?

Based on what we have now, post ASM 30, it has to be Harry Osborn or OMD Peter Parker. "Climb the ranks" sounds Peter Parker more than Harry Osborn. OMD Pete is in his own shadow. He gets angry when his decision to cover up his identity is compromised by Modern Peter Parker. He's not one to judge because he made a deal with the devil, damning him to hell while Modern Peter gets to live free for his sacrifice (his motivation for hating Peter). He wants to protect MJ. He was looking out for her while Modern Peter was trapped during Hunted. "Slave to continuity" is the biggest give-away. It's why it's OMD Peter or Harry. It's easy to explain away the return of Harry by Mephisto (or pick your clone poison). But a slave to continuity... c'mon... that screams OMD Peter who'se about to put things back the way they should be! My money is on the original Harry Osborn, who died in SSM 200 and actually never came back.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Based on what we have now, post ASM 30, it has to be Harry Osborn or OMD Peter Parker. "Climb the ranks" sounds Peter Parker more than Harry Osborn. OMD Pete is in his own shadow. He gets angry when his decision to cover up his identity is compromised by Modern Peter Parker. He's not one to judge because he made a deal with the devil, damning him to hell while Modern Peter gets to live free for his sacrifice (his motivation for hating Peter). He wants to protect MJ. He was looking out for her while Modern Peter was trapped during Hunted. "Slave to continuity" is the biggest give-away. It's why it's OMD Peter or Harry. It's easy to explain away the return of Harry by Mephisto (or pick your clone poison). But a slave to continuity... c'mon... that screams OMD Peter who'se about to put things back the way they should be! My money is on the original Harry Osborn, who died in SSM 200 and actually never came back.

If it was OMD Peter why does he mock Spencer's Peter for still pining after Gwen's memory and ruminating about how MJ feels about Peter still having PTSD dreams where he calls out Gwen's name? Wouldn't that be...I dunno...monumentally hypocritical and callous of him? Like the OG-Peter never cared for Gwen at all. I mean I am not a fan of Gwen and I think Peter does in fact love MJ more than Gwen but even then Peter still cared and loved her, and he would always beat himself up for her death for a variety of reasons.

If it was Harry, then again it wouldn't make sense, since Harry did mourn Gwen as shown in BEST OF ENEMIES where he admits to MJ about not being able to live with the fact that his father killed Gwen, or in Roger Stern's Hobgoblin Saga where during the blackmail rich dudes arc, Harry confronts consciously the idea that Norman killed Gwen and can't live with the idea of a close friend of his dying.

If it was Gwen, her mocking Peter for his guilt and the baggage he unloads on MJ about it, does make sense.

[Inversed]

"The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi".

Again it could be Gwen still...but it could be someone else too.

I like the flashback and Ottley's flashback take on Gwen is interesting.

I love that Ottley's version of Gwen is literally just Amber, fitting in right next to MJ as Atom Eve. Even his Flash kind of resembles William a tad.

Based on what we have now, post ASM 30, it has to be Harry Osborn or OMD Peter Parker. "Climb the ranks" sounds Peter Parker more than Harry Osborn. OMD Pete is in his own shadow. He gets angry when his decision to cover up his identity is compromised by Modern Peter Parker. He's not one to judge because he made a deal with the devil, damning him to hell while Modern Peter gets to live free for his sacrifice (his motivation for hating Peter). He wants to protect MJ. He was looking out for her while Modern Peter was trapped during Hunted. "Slave to continuity" is the biggest give-away. It's why it's OMD Peter or Harry. It's easy to explain away the return of Harry by Mephisto (or pick your clone poison). But a slave to continuity... c'mon... that screams OMD Peter who'se about to put things back the way they should be! My money is on the original Harry Osborn, who died in SSM 200 and actually never came back.

I've seen some OMD Peter theories that use the explanation that in the new form of reality created by Mephisto, the part of Peter's soul was removed and became Kindred during the would-be wedding (as seen in OMIT), so that would fit in with the timeline of him starting out in hell at that point, and rising the ranks to become a demon by the time of Mysterio's arrival.

Honestly, I don't think it's a coincidence that the first arc of Spencer's run is Peter and Spider-Man being split into two separate beings. I think that could be a direct clue to Kindred being in fact, an already previous split form of Peter that's gone completely crazy, just like we see the "Spider-Man" side of him get increasingly nutter in Back To Basics.

[RyanParkerMan]

If it was OMD Peter why does he mock Spencer's Peter for still pining after Gwen's memory and ruminating about how MJ feels about Peter still having PTSD dreams where he calls out Gwen's name? Wouldn't that be...I dunno...monumentally hypocritical and callous of him? Like the OG-Peter never cared for Gwen at all. I mean I am not a fan of Gwen and I think Peter does in fact love MJ more than Gwen but even then Peter still cared and loved her, and he would always beat himself up for her death for a variety of reasons.

If it was Harry, then again it wouldn't make sense, since Harry did mourn Gwen as shown in BEST OF ENEMIES where he admits to MJ about not being able to live with the fact that his father killed Gwen, or in Roger Stern's Hobgoblin Saga where during the blackmail rich dudes arc, Harry confronts consciously the idea that Norman killed Gwen and can't live with the idea of a close friend of his dying.

If it was Gwen, her mocking Peter for his guilt and the baggage he unloads on MJ about it, does make sense.

Again, I think it's PRE-BND Harry. That's my bet. Could be one of the Sin's Past kids with the Sins Remembered Kindred quote but I think that's a waste of a reveal given how many stories the twins actually had in Spdier-Man history. It's not Gwen Stacy. They're not bringing classic 616 Gwen back as an evil demon.

OMD Peter as Kindred (they'd certainly be Kindred Spirits, as he's a part of Peter Parker's orginal... er... spirit) isn't Peter Parker anymore. He's twisted by being in hell. This is also a Peter Parker who prior to OMD had been married to MJ for years and years. He was over Gwen. Or for the most part at least. He's never over her, Spider-Man:Blue and Sins Past happened late into Peter's marriage. And that doesn't do it for you, keep in mind, Kindred hates Peter Parker for "what he did"... not only is that a huge OMD clue but maybe he finds it a little hypocritical that Peter, who indirectly killed Gwen, and without Gwen even knowing Peter was Spider-Man (twisted), is pining over her memory.

[Snoop Dogg]

Would Hellfire Peter or a Coffee Bean crew member get visibly erect at the thought of Mary Jane dying and then being all alone with Peter to give him some TLC?

[Yvonmukluk]

If it was OMD Peter why does he mock Spencer's Peter for still pining after Gwen's memory and ruminating about how MJ feels about Peter still having PTSD dreams where he calls out Gwen's name? Wouldn't that be...I dunno...monumentally hypocritical and callous of him? Like the OG-Peter never cared for Gwen at all. I mean I am not a fan of Gwen and I think Peter does in fact love MJ more than Gwen but even then Peter still cared and loved her, and he would always beat himself up for her death for a variety of reasons.

If it was Harry, then again it wouldn't make sense, since Harry did mourn Gwen as shown in BEST OF ENEMIES where he admits to MJ about not being able to live with the fact that his father killed Gwen, or in Roger Stern's Hobgoblin Saga where during the blackmail rich dudes arc, Harry confronts consciously the idea that Norman killed Gwen and can't live with the idea of a close friend of his dying.

If it was Gwen, her mocking Peter for his guilt and the baggage he unloads on MJ about it, does make sense.

I don't think Kindred was mocking Peter, but more musing on the impact Gwen's death had on all of their circle of friends. You know, just like he did in Best of Enemies.

I mean, we already know Kindred's a man from ASM #24. So that alone eliminates Gwen, and Flash was alive and well when Mysterio died in Guardian Devil and when he came back to life.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Would Hellfire Peter or a Coffee Bean crew member get visibly erect at the thought of Mary Jane dying and then being all alone with Peter to give him some TLC?

Pre-Death Gwen would. She had a nasty streak.

[Celgress]

....Honestly, I don't think it's a coincidence that the first arc of Spencer's run is Peter and Spider-Man being split into two separate beings. I think that could be a direct clue to Kindred being in fact, an already previous split form of Peter that's gone completely crazy, just like we see the "Spider-Man" side of him get increasingly nutter in Back To Basics.

If you are right I wonder how this would be rectified? Kindred is a victim in this situation as much as a villain.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I mean, we already know Kindred's a man from ASM #24.

All we know is that Mysterio thinks it's a man. Which can mean that Kindred fooled him. The same way the Phantasm fooled everyone in Mask of the Phantasm, including Batman.

[Celgress]

All we know is that Mysterio thinks it's a man. Which can mean that Kindred fooled him. The same way the Phantasm fooled everyone in Mask of the Phantasm, including Batman.

A valid point.