Kindred Speculation

[Yvonmukluk]

I just never thought it was Harry. The whole premise never made sense. He was already brought back from the dead so long ago and it was explained. I don’t see any reason for Spencer to retcon that and put his own spin on it. Just doesn’t seem like a good idea. I could be wrong though.

It was explained...but considering that Mysterio was apparently a key part of the alleged coverup and is actually Kindred's whipping boy, plus we know now that Kindred can influence people's minds, add to the fact that the resurrection coincides perfectly with Brand New Day while Kindred clearly has some kind of demonic powers and interest in keeping Peter & MJ apart - he literally set things up so they'd be separated right when Peter was seriously considering re-proposing.

I mean, it seems like if it is Harry that Spencer is going to do for him what he did for Kraven - address a poorly-handled resurrection and recontextualize the character. Now whether that involves him dying again is up in the air.

If Harry's resurrection was unnecessary, how is Kindred being "real Harry" any different? The latter is still a resurrection.

Because the BND resurrection was basically part of the plan to roll Peter's world back to an imagined past when he was a swinging bachelor hangin' out with his best pal Harry! Never mind that Peter was a serial monogamist, the good old days are back! Whereas if Harry is Kindred, it means he came back for a purpose. He's not really done much of anything to justify undoing Best of Enemies since he came back, to my knowledge. Kraven got his stuff in Unbeatable Squirrel Girl (although I'm pretty sure that's not what the writers of Grim Hunt had in mind when they resurrected him), and the Hunted.

[Spidey_62]

Harry's resurrection was dumb, oh no he actually didn't really die he went to Europe and got better like his dad. It was nice having him around again, more often then not he acted way too cheery for comic Harry - so it was like why?

It's like what Nick Spencer did with Hunted, put Kraven back where he belongs yet still gave Kraven for future stories. Grim Hunt was a fine story but just utterly pointless, Kraven never did anything again in ASM since his fruitless return. It was like they just wanted Kraven around again even though there was no stories beyond that any of them wanted to tell. Dan Slott said he didn't touch Kraven because he said he should be dead. Hunted was a good story that let Kraven do something big again and send him off while paying respects to the stories that came before. If Kindred is Harry, I could see it being another cleaning up of the slate. I think bringing characters back the way Harry was brought back lessens the gravitas the character's world has, because when his friends can just come back to life with no real consequences then that goes against one of the big pillars of being Spider-Man- that it isn't easy and sometimes people you love get hurt.

We know the Mysterio connection and the Norman connection if it's Harry, I can't think of any specific interactions with Kingpin but they had to have met at some point in the 80s.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Because the BND resurrection was basically part of the plan to roll Peter's world back to an imagined past when he was a swinging bachelor hangin' out with his best pal Harry! Never mind that Peter was a serial monogamist, the good old days are back! Whereas if Harry is Kindred, it means he came back for a purpose. He's not really done much of anything to justify undoing Best of Enemies since he came back, to my knowledge. Kraven got his stuff in Unbeatable Squirrel Girl (although I'm pretty sure that's not what the writers of Grim Hunt had in mind when they resurrected him), and the Hunted.

Harry's resurrection was dumb, oh no he actually didn't really die he went to Europe and got better like his dad. It was nice having him around again, more often then not he acted way too cheery for comic Harry - so it was like why?

It's like what Nick Spencer did with Hunted, put Kraven back where he belongs yet still gave Kraven for future stories.

With Kraven, Nick Spencer did not negate Grim Hunt. The Kraven who came back in that story was the same Kraven who died in KLH. Spencer worked with what he had to undo some effects of Kraven's return (for instance the Kraven in Squirrel Girl was one of the clone sons that Kraven Jr. whacked off-panel). In the case of Kindred-maybe-Harry, Spencer is outright negating BND. Spencer could have worked with the Harry he had the way Spencer worked with the Kraven he had...have him discover Peter's identity, go into a dark place and decide to haunt/terrorize Peter and then die as he did in Best of Enemies...since that's what Hunted did. It was Spencer's way of confirming that KLH is everlasting.

At the very least we are all sure that Kindred is not BND-Harry, right? I think that much is certain.

The issues with Kindred being Best-Of-Enemies Harry is that he died redeemed and whole. As a villain he never killed anybody while alive. Aside from the retconned-in jerk move with the Robotparents (which everyone's pretended was never a real thing)...there's nothing to suggest that Harry died with real resentment and dislike to Peter or have any bitterness with Peter.

Which is why I think Gwen makes more sense. I can't imagine Norman Osborn calling his own son Harry his greatest legacy. Norman disliked Harry and resented him. He tried to replace Harry with Peter in Revenge of the Green Goblin. Post-BND there was the whole Norman going hillbilly and having an affair with his son's fiancee thing. Killing Gwen though is absolutely Norman's greatest legacy...and Kindred himself says in ASM #30 that Norman scarred Peter's generation by giving them a rude awakening into adulthood (which was also a theme of JMD's Best of Enemies...it's kind of a dark college reunion story about how Peter, Harry, MJ feel they grew up into such f--k ups, a bit like The Big Chill).

Of course I could be wrong. At the very least those are questions that I feel Spencer would have to answer if it turns out that it's indeed Harry of Best of Enemies.

[Huntsman Spider]

With Kraven, Nick Spencer did not negate Grim Hunt. The Kraven who came back in that story was the same Kraven who died in KLH. Spencer worked with what he had to undo some effects of Kraven's return (for instance the Kraven in Squirrel Girl was one of the clone sons that Kraven Jr. whacked off-panel). In the case of Kindred-maybe-Harry, Spencer is outright negating BND. Spencer could have worked with the Harry he had the way Spencer worked with the Kraven he had...have him discover Peter's identity, go into a dark place and decide to haunt/terrorize Peter and then die as he did in Best of Enemies...since that's what Hunted did. It was Spencer's way of confirming that KLH is everlasting.

At the very least we are all sure that Kindred is not BND-Harry, right? I think that much is certain.

The issues with Kindred being Best-Of-Enemies Harry is that he died redeemed and whole. As a villain he never killed anybody while alive. Aside from the retconned-in jerk move with the Robotparents (which everyone's pretended was never a real thing)...there's nothing to suggest that Harry died with real resentment and dislike to Peter or have any bitterness with Peter.

Which is why I think Gwen makes more sense. I can't imagine Norman Osborn calling his own son Harry his greatest legacy. Norman disliked Harry and resented him. He tried to replace Harry with Peter in Revenge of the Green Goblin. Post-BND there was the whole Norman going hillbilly and having an affair with his son's fiancee thing. Killing Gwen though is absolutely Norman's greatest legacy...and Kindred himself says in ASM #30 that Norman scarred Peter's generation by giving them a rude awakening into adulthood (which was also a theme of JMD's Best of Enemies...it's kind of a dark college reunion story about how Peter, Harry, MJ feel they grew up into such f--k ups, a bit like The Big Chill).

Of course I could be wrong. At the very least those are questions that I feel Spencer would have to answer if it turns out that it's indeed Harry of Best of Enemies.

My personal canon for the robot parents thing was that it was Norman Osborn pretending to be Harry in that video just to torque Peter even more. That's the only way it makes sense to me, especially since Norman was alive all along in that timeframe.

[Snoop Dogg]

(for instance the Kraven in Squirrel Girl was one of the clone sons that Kraven Jr. whacked off-panel).

Spencer just made the SG stuff part of Kraven's arc because Spencer's smart and Thanosi-stuff is lazy and bad.

[Lukmendes]

With Kraven, Nick Spencer did not negate Grim Hunt. The Kraven who came back in that story was the same Kraven who died in KLH. Spencer worked with what he had to undo some effects of Kraven's return (for instance the Kraven in Squirrel Girl was one of the clone sons that Kraven Jr. whacked off-panel).

Actually, ASM#22 has Kraven mentioning that "he tried to become something more, something better", the panel that has that narration even has a squirrel on it, it sounds like it's referencing his appearance in Squirrel Girl and saying it was really him.

Edit:

Spencer just made the SG stuff part of Kraven's arc because Spencer's smart and Thanosi-stuff is lazy and bad.

Lol, I was ninja'd

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Actually, ASM#22 has Kraven mentioning that "he tried to become something more, something better", the panel that has that narration even has a squirrel on it, it sounds like it's referencing his appearance in Squirrel Girl and saying it was really him.

Okay. I missed that.

But anyway my point was that Spencer didn't once say Grim Hunt didn't happen even if Hunted was all about undermining that story. So if he had issues with Harry being resurrected then he could have simply worked with BND Harry and have him relapse...either start doing drugs again, start getting Goblin flashbacks (maybe out of fears about Normie after GDS) and other issues with Emily...and then have him become Harry Goblin.Everyone's pretty certain Kindred isn't Harry Goblin. So Spencer didn't do that?

That begs the question if Spencer has problems with Harry being resurrected why didn't he just work with the Harry he has and kill him the way he did Kraven? He could have made it a "Return of Harry Goblin" event just like Hunted was.

[WebSlingWonder]

Okay. I missed that.

But anyway my point was that Spencer didn't once say Grim Hunt didn't happen even if Hunted was all about undermining that story. So if he had issues with Harry being resurrected then he could have simply worked with BND Harry and have him relapse...either start doing drugs again, start getting Goblin flashbacks (maybe out of fears about Normie after GDS) and other issues with Emily...and then have him become Harry Goblin.Everyone's pretty certain Kindred isn't Harry Goblin. So Spencer didn't do that?

That begs the question if Spencer has problems with Harry being resurrected why didn't he just work with the Harry he has and kill him the way he did Kraven? He could have made it a "Return of Harry Goblin" event just like Hunted was.

Because Kraven is tied to a BND story: Harry's resurrection is tied to you-know-what. It's a lot harder to do that without a given reason. And again, we don't know WHY Harry was brought back (in-universe at least) rather than everyone else. That's a story that needs to be told, perhaps on a larger scale than just "let's kill him off and replace him" like Hunted.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Harry's resurrection is tied to you-know-what.

Harry's resurrection was never part of the deal with Mephisto. It was to save May's life not "bring back drug addict friend who I have literally not spoken or mentioned about a great deal and certainly not in any single issue of JMS' ASM run".

The retcons introduced to bring Harry alive, and his return to ongoing continuity, happened in the small break in time after Peter and MJ broke up in OMIT and the epilogue at the end of the last issue of OMD.

That's a story that needs to be told, perhaps on a larger scale than just "let's kill him off and replace him" like Hunted.

I suppose so. I mean that's a good answer for that.

[WebSlingWonder]

Harry's resurrection was never part of the deal with Mephisto. It was to save May's life not "bring back drug addict friend who I have literally not spoken or mentioned about a great deal and certainly not in any single issue of JMS' ASM run".

The retcons introduced to bring Harry alive, and his return to ongoing continuity, happened in the small break in time after Peter and MJ broke up in OMIT and the epilogue at the end of the last issue of OMD.



I suppose so. I mean that's a good answer for that.

Those retcons were placeholders for a larger untold story and weren't really explained well at all in my opinion. Harry may not have been part of the "deal", but his return after that major event should raise some eyebrows for those in-universe. And that is what I think Spencer is doing here. I think Kindred is Harry Osborn. The question isn't "who" but rather "why" or "how". That is part of Spencer's MO: he doesn't much care about the who (that part comes easy), it's the how. How does it fit together? How does it make sense?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

That is part of Spencer's MO: he doesn't much care about the who (that part comes easy), it's the how. How does it fit together? How does it make sense?

I actually do think Spencer cares about "who"? Otherwise he'd have told us straight up who Kindred is. Obviously the reveal of Kindred is being saved for a big dramatic moment and confrontation with Peter. And the "who" matters greatly for that to happen. Now of course that doesn't mean that Spencer is going to change gears and his intended plot twist because some people guess it. A good plot twist works even when people guess it because as you say the "how" and "why" matters. But obviously, Spencer has invested a lot of time in Kindred's identity.

[RD155]

I actually do think Spencer cares about "who"? Otherwise he'd have told us straight up who Kindred is. Obviously the reveal of Kindred is being saved for a big dramatic moment and confrontation with Peter. And the "who" matters greatly for that to happen. Now of course that doesn't mean that Spencer is going to change gears and his intended plot twist because some people guess it. A good plot twist works even when people guess it because as you say the "how" and "why" matters. But obviously, Spencer has invested a lot of time in Kindred's identity.

Personally I think the “who” matters more then anything on this front. Of course it all has to make sense as well...but It has to have a dramatic kick to it. That was one of the reasons I never went along with the Ezekiel angle. I don’t feel that would have enough impact to it. Spencer is making it painfully obvious that it’s Harry, almost too obvious. For that reason I’m also not in the “it’s Harry Osborn” camp either. Spencer has to knock this one out of the park. That’s the main reason I always worry when writers do this slow reveals of a mystery character: Sometimes the payoff just isn’t worth it when the mask comes off.

[Mister Mets]

Harry's resurrection was never part of the deal with Mephisto. It was to save May's life not "bring back drug addict friend who I have literally not spoken or mentioned about a great deal and certainly not in any single issue of JMS' ASM run".

The retcons introduced to bring Harry alive, and his return to ongoing continuity, happened in the small break in time after Peter and MJ broke up in OMIT and the epilogue at the end of the last issue of OMD.



I suppose so. I mean that's a good answer for that.

Peter and MJ probably would have sacrificed the marriage to save Harry, so it would be an odd consequence to One More Day.

I'm still going to guess that Kindred isn't really connected to One More Day, since Peter and MJ's reconciliation came relatively late in Nick Spencer's writing of the first issue, but one potential revelation could be that there were other timelines between One More Day and Brand New Day. Perhaps in one, Peter and MJ reversed One More Day but then undid that to save Harry. I don't think it's the way they're going with the story, but it's a way they could go.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Peter and MJ probably would have sacrificed the marriage to save Harry, so it would be an odd consequence to One More Day.

From what I read, Harry's resurrection was essentially he was alive the whole time between Best of Enemies to OMD but had been out of their lives. Then OMD/OMIT happened, and he returned to USA and reinserted himself in their lives. The resurrection was explained in such a way that it could have happened even if the two were married. Continuity wasn't altered, like Harry didn't show up in stories where he had been absent in OTL and so on.

"probably would have" doesn't work because everything's been done to explain that Harry would have lived and returned regardless of the deal. The confusion stems from the fact that Quesada implied that Harry's resurrection was a result of the deal on those interviews he gave after but the actual continuity established after that (which wanted to proceed as much as possible without reference to Mephisto) didn't use that argument.

And in any case, if Kindred-maybe-Harry is the case, then Harry was never resurrected to begin with. So "probably would have" is moot. BND-Harry would be an impostor.

I'm still going to guess that Kindred isn't really connected to One More Day, since Peter and MJ's reconciliation came relatively late in Nick Spencer's writing of the first issue,

Unless we have actual drafts we don't know that. Spencer seemed to imply that Quesada reached out to him early in the process of writing. My guess is that Spencer hinted to editors that he wanted Peter/MJ back, and they didn't know if that was okay and that went up to Quesada who having been told, decided to bring it up and set Spencer at ease.

Perhaps in one, Peter and MJ reversed One More Day but then undid that to save Harry. I don't think it's the way they're going with the story, but it's a way they could go.

That might actually be interesting...though the problem with that is that it implies that BND-Peter isn't Peter of AF#15.

[PCN24454]

Harry-as-Kindred sounds like the most fanfiction-y, cringeworthy idea. If you really like Spencer, give him more credit than to have him do something that so blatantly contradicts 12 years worth of stories.