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  1. #166
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Even if it did better in trades, the book was losing money in single issues. A lot of money. Trades alone don't sell well enough. It would have to be selling "well enough" in trades to be topping the charts. It does not show up in the top 1000 graphic novels from Diamond in 2018. Try finding it in any list of top sellers as tracked through BookScan.

    While I know these numbers don't tell the whole story, they show us enough, enough to know that simply saying "sells well in trades" is just too convenient a claim to overlook everything else.

  2. #167
    Ready to roll out! R0d's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    it got a new mini because it did very well on trades, Marvel wasn't doing a favor
    First trade was placed in the 55 position with 1.3K orders ( https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...7/2017-12.html ) and the second was placed 94 with just 959 ( https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...8/2018-04.html ).
    Since when are those numbers considered as "it did very well on trades"? Sorry, I'm not buying it, IMO Marvel wanted to avoid a PR storm so they gave Sina a mini as a way to show some support.

  3. #168
    Chris-chan of X-fans Maestroneto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R0d View Post
    First trade was placed in the 55 position with 1.3K orders ( https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...7/2017-12.html ) and the second was placed 94 with just 959 ( https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...8/2018-04.html ).
    Since when are those numbers considered as "it did very well on trades"? Sorry, I'm not buying it, IMO Marvel wanted to avoid a PR storm so they gave Sina a mini as a way to show some support.
    That's only trades sold to comic stores. Not Amazon, Barnes & Noble and other regular book/online stores

  4. #169
    Extraordinary Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    If Marvel thought the book would crossover and sell it would have given it a bigger push. They knew it wouldn't so they focused their money on other things that would. You don't think Marvel would love to have 5 or 10 solo X-Men books that sold well every month going? They know people are not going to be buying them, but they hope for the best and give it a go. Deadpool got almost no real push when his first few minis came out or even when his ongoing started, but the audience was there and they found the book. The audience for the Iceman book was about as big as it was going to get because he is such a niche character.

  5. #170
    Ready to roll out! R0d's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maestroneto View Post
    That's only trades sold to comic stores. Not Amazon, Barnes & Noble and other regular book/online stores
    So conveniently enough, the numbers we can not track are the ones that are outstandingly high, what a coincidence.
    Guess we just have to trust the word of the executives at Marvel, they would never lie to us...

  6. #171
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    it's sad that the response Grace got and is getting compared to other writers on here

  7. #172
    BANNED spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R0d View Post
    So conveniently enough, the numbers we can not track are the ones that are outstandingly high, what a coincidence.
    Guess we just have to trust the word of the executives at Marvel, they would never lie to us...
    There is book scan to consult;

    I don't believe that Marvel would spend money on a thing that doesn't sell twice

  8. #173
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    You don't need the numbers of every single market to determine the success of experimental books. Just look at how long the thing lasts. To come back from cancellation means yes, objectively, it held its own outside comic shops. But it's no Squirrel Girl, Moon Girl, Captain Marvel, Ms. Marvel, Black Panther, blah blah blah
    Dance games are my divine punishment from the Lord. May my furnace be forever fueled.

  9. #174
    Ultimate Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maestroneto View Post
    That's only trades sold to comic stores. Not Amazon, Barnes & Noble and other regular book/online stores
    Also doesn't count sales outside the USA.

  10. #175
    Fantastic Member mikelmcknight72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    If Marvel thought the book would crossover and sell it would have given it a bigger push. They knew it wouldn't so they focused their money on other things that would. You don't think Marvel would love to have 5 or 10 solo X-Men books that sold well every month going? They know people are not going to be buying them, but they hope for the best and give it a go. Deadpool got almost no real push when his first few minis came out or even when his ongoing started, but the audience was there and they found the book. The audience for the Iceman book was about as big as it was going to get because he is such a niche character.
    It should be noted that he was a niche character before the poorly written story outing him. Making him a real world minority on top of already being an allegorical minority, followed by the inevitable focus on his new status, made him even more of a niche character. Small wonder that gay Iceman isn't currently a breakout character.

    Create stories that play to the character's strengths. He's heroic. He's funny. He's powerful. He's not well-suited for preachy, SJW leaning stories. He's definitely not well-suited for super serious stories. I wouldn't go full Squirrel Girl/Harley Quinn style, but a mini that leans into the funny side with him would be apt. Make it cosmic and heroic, because he's got the power and the heroism required. Don't hid his orientation, but don't parade it about. When it appears naturally in the story, show that no one really cares or is bothered by him being gay (depict a better world as an inspiration). Leaning into the character's strengths like that could elevate him a great deal. X-Men fans would love to have another breakout X-character. The only one we really have is Logan. The LGBT & gay community would love to see a character reflects them get elevated. We'd potentially get a win for everyone!

    And let's face it, very few folks enjoy the "very special episode", after school special, preachy, condescending stories. You are either preaching to the choir or preaching to the disinterested, because the folks who actively disagree with the message aren't going to be reading in the first place. It essentially turns into a self-satisfying exercise in virtue signalling. Even so, no one enjoys receiving condescension. These sorts of stories generally are textbook examples of condescension.

    And for goodness's sake, publishers, don't trust a writer like Bendis with a coming out story. The man's a fine writer with characters who are essentially new or so ill-defined as to be ripe for re-invention. However, the man doesn't do subtlety, nuance, or sensitivity well. At least not that I've seen.

  11. #176
    Spectacular Member scourge's Avatar
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    Having recently re-read the entire run, I can say that all the people that are whining that he's "stereotypical" or "too gay" are full of it. He's still Iceman in the book. Still funny still heroic and there's no 'preachy SJW' stuff. Its not a perfect book for sure but its far better than how several have been putting it down.

    Don't hid his orientation, but don't parade it about. When it appears naturally in the story, show that no one really cares or is bothered by him being gay (depict a better world as an inspiration).
    Bull. That's a MASSIVE lie right there.

  12. #177
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scourge View Post
    Having recently re-read the entire run, I can say that all the people that are whining that he's "stereotypical" or "too gay" are full of it. He's still Iceman in the book. Still funny still heroic and there's no 'preachy SJW' stuff. Its not a perfect book for sure but its far better than how several have been putting it down.



    Bull. That's a MASSIVE lie right there.
    Exactly this.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  13. #178

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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    Considering they didn't respond or take any action at all, the scenarios you present are purely hypothetical. The fact that they "offered him tips" to deal with the trolls himself instead of defending him themselves shows how aware they were of the unfairness and pitfalls that came with the job THEY offered him, but were still unwilling to step in. It just reeks of shady corporate dynamics.
    What response or action would you have liked to take? And where should the line be drawn to make sure Marvel always picks the right side?

    Quote Originally Posted by KangMiRae View Post
    It’s unreasonable to expect the publisher to make an announcement every time one of their writers gets harassed on social media. Perhaps he should remove himself from social media to be safer next time.
    That's a bad alternative for a few reasons.

    Social media is a form of promotion. So that's hamstringing creative teams.

    It could also be a problem to allow someone to be harassed for their connection to your company.

    And it gives a win to terrible people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    And crying about how people are being unfair to the big, profit-making corporation looking for WOKE points without putting themselves on the line is dumb.
    This is a bit messy since they're also aware there are fans pissed off at them for trying to score WOKE points.

  14. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by R0d View Post
    So conveniently enough, the numbers we can not track are the ones that are outstandingly high, what a coincidence.
    Yes. Because readers who aren't old cis straight white men all got driven out of the direct market in the 90s by the homophobic and misogynist harassment.

    You know critics could save everyone's time by just saying they don't want icky gays in their comics. Unironic use of the term "SJW" in fucking 2019 proves that. They're totally fine with teh gayz, as long as they never appear in any stories and never mention that they're gay or do anything gay and they're treated unambiguously worse than others behind the scenes. The fact that they call something as beningly inoffensive as Iceman 2017 "preachy" confirms that there will never be a level of queer rep that they're willing to tolerate. Iceman was a character study focused on dealing with the same fucking issues that have always defined Bobby since the beginning. But it was "too gay" for their delicate sensibilities. And so they decide it was "political", because to Gaters, "there are two sexualities- straight and ""political"".

    Fyi, not everything is For You, Chad.

  15. #180
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Why would have Marvel brought it back as a mini if it hadn't done well somewhere? It's not even like they didn't cancelled it. They cancelled it and then brought it back for a while, as in, they saw a reason for it. According to what Grace says here, they weren't even all that supportive or cared a lot about the book, so I don't see why would they have chosen to make the mini.

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