Sina Grace talks about Marvel and Iceman - and he's NOT happy

[cranger]

That is no real information at all. Especially when you consider the constant updating of Amazon figures they become meaningless (I believe they are now hourly, how that informs anyone is beyond me). Why are you so interested in sales anyway? It has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.

As this discussion went on, multiple claims were made that Iceman did very well in trades, probably, if I recall correctly, to suggest why it went on for as long it did or at least why it got a mini even after low sales in the direct market.

[JKtheMac]

As this discussion went on, multiple claims were made that Iceman did very well in trades, probably, if I recall correctly, to suggest why it went on for as long it did or at least why it got a mini even after low sales in the direct market.

Oh I know. But I don't see the relevance really. Yes Sina mentioned the second mini being based on digital and trade sales, and presumably this is what he was told. It was certainly how Marvel promoted it, even though they didn't really promote it widely. But this is a minor consideration compared to what Sina is actually complaining about in his piece. He is not complaining about sales he is complaining about lack of support when he was being attacked, and the changing of the messages and the shifting advice he received while working with Marvel. His complaints are entirely based on PR issues, Editorial concerns and marketing choices.

[shooshoomanjoe]

Low sales axed Iceman. Marvel said they will keep Sina on mind but it looks like he burnt that bridge before they could get back to him.

[Colossus1980]

With the insane volume of Marvel books that are constantly being pumped out every month, do the majority of the new solos get promoted more than the others? If so, please list them. Unless it's a big event, I don't think any title gets a big push. Unless there's going to be a movie or TV show the IP gets pushed to the extreme like the Inhumans.

[Rosebunse]

Do we have any solid evidence that LGBTQ and minority centered comics and graphic novels do poorly?

[Havok83]

Do we have any solid evidence that LGBTQ and minority centered comics and graphic novels do poorly?

the fact that most of the ones Marvel have put out dont do great numbers. The most prominent one they've release is Black Panther and his sales dont do that well:

ETA: I forgot about Miles Morales as Spider-Man whom does do better, but we are talking about 30K. Most minority led books arent doing anywhere near that

[scourge]

Do we have any solid evidence that LGBTQ and minority centered comics and graphic novels do poorly?

Not really, no.

Just a lot of things people like to hold up and yell are "proof" only straight white male leads should exist.

[Devaishwarya]

While his overall experience is unfortunate, I cannot say that I'm shocked or even mildly surprised by Marvel's/the X-Office's ineptitude and general lack of interest/promotion when it comes to their second and third tier properties and even far less when it comes to their minorities.

My advice to him would be to sell hi work to other publishers like IDW, Image who seem to be more interested in putting out less-mainstream, creative-owned work. Or, just self publish.

[FUBAR007]

... saying something is ghetto is racist now?

For white people to say, yes.

I honestly haven't heard that one before and I work with a black woman and a mexican man that both use the term all the time. is this just one of those things that white people can't say but everyone else can?

Yes. The equivalent term for white people is "trailer" (i.e. trailer park). Though that's a no-no in some circles as well.

It's best to stick to non-slang terms or just not say anything at all. What is and is not acceptable changes by the hour, and the Woke deliberately don't publicly announce changes in what is acceptable to say and who is allowed to say it. Rather, they explicitly prefer calling out individuals on a case-by-case basis as they believe public shaming is both the most appropriate form of punishment and the most effective means of encouraging empathy, respect, and intersectional awareness. They refer to these instances as "teachable moments". The more extreme form--ostracization, lawsuits, job loss, etc.--is now referred to as being "canceled".

If your employer offers diversity training, I highly recommend attending a session annually. You'll get at least a 101-level course in the jargon, what the core beliefs and expectations are, what's changed in the preceding year, and, most importantly, a sense of how the unspoken norms and non-verbal cues work. Once you've got that, you'll be better able to navigate diverse social settings, including how to spot the Woke and how to avoid being trapped in a "teachable moment".

For the uninitiated, it's a bit like learning a foreign language along with the unique customs of a religious denomination. Entirely doable, though, and quite useful as it provides social survival skills for contemporary Western culture.

[JKtheMac]

With the insane volume of Marvel books that are constantly being pumped out every month, do the majority of the new solos get promoted more than the others? If so, please list them. Unless it's a big event, I don't think any title gets a big push. Unless there's going to be a movie or TV show the IP gets pushed to the extreme like the Inhumans.

I don't think anyone was suggesting the second Iceman mini deserved a big push. Indeed the quote was:

Marvel still treated me as someone to be contained, and the book as something to be nervous about. Do you know how hard it is to not argue with a publicist when he’s explaining the value of announcing Iceman’s revival via the Marvel homepage? Sis, that’s a burial. Instead of clapping back, I just went and got myself more press from the New York Times. From there, they tightened my leash. I had to get all opportunities pre-approved, and all interviews pre-reviewed. This would be fine if it was the standard, but I assure you: none of my straight male colleagues seek permission to go on podcasts promoting their books.

So clearly there is a lack of communication going on here. Sina was clearly trying to point out that he believed his book would at least warrant more than the softest possible release other than not announcing it at all, because he was positive that the press would be receptive of his work. He then proved this by gaining a high profile press piece but instead of being supported in his own efforts he was stifled and contained. Which contrasts with his experience when people were outright attacking him, for which he had to provide the evidence to Marvel and then got purely verbal advice that he was suspicious of. We don't know how that conversation went but he suggests that he was suspicious enough of the advice and lack of support that he chose to terminate the call.

So, no. Most books don't get much promotional money spent on them, and it entirely depends on current priorities. That wasn't really the issue here. It was about a perceived lack of confidence in the product and lack of faith in him and in his own promotional efforts.

[Silver Fang]

For white people to say, yes.

It becomes an issue when said people use is as insulting, but don't use it properly. If anyone remembers the film Epic.

Queen Tara was black, and she was voice by Beyonce.

She was a fun loving, yet royal & badass character. But ya had people complaining Beyonce / the Queen was "ghetto". There was nothing close to ghetto about her. But because she was a black woman with a "colorful" voice / accent, she's labelled as ghetto.

If she was Brenda (Scary Movie), then they'd have a point. But no. For many of other races, "ghetto" is name used for people they deem "too black."

I remember one of my former white friends had this issue. She outright told me that her family was racist and didn't care for black people. But she noted they didn't mind me because I didn't look black. That was a first red flag. When my father was driving us to a game, he stopped by his mother's house. Said friend got nervous & wondered what people would think of her in "this neighborhood." Some white people lived there too, but she conceded the white folks living there for a bit more "ghetto." As we got older, she learned to drive before I did, and if she came to pick me up, she'd want me outside quickly because "the neighborhood" made her nervous. Because black people lived here, despite the fact one lady who lives here has numerous white foster kids & white people are see walking down the street frequently with no problem. The neighborhood wasn't a gangster, white-hating, hood. Not to mention her own house was next to a prison, where she said breakouts happen. But that didn't make her more nervous than being in a residential town area that had lots of black people.

Is it any shock I don't talk to her anymore. lol

[kjn]

Which contrasts with his experience when people were outright attacking him, for which he had to provide the evidence to Marvel and then got purely verbal advice that he was suspicious of. We don't know how that conversation went but he suggests that he was suspicious enough of the advice and lack of support that he chose to terminate the call.

The advice was probably well meant, but coming from a white privileged guy who doesn't work on the digital frontlines, I think the risk of the advice being useless, or worse than useless, to be rather high.

Both Marvel and DC should do well to have a full-time social media manager in-house. Part of their job would be to make sure the publisher knows how to fight back effectively against astroturfings or Gamergate type people and be able to coach creators on what to do when the shit hits the fan. Up to and including running digital interference for a creator under concerted attack: screening comments/tweets, reporting stuff, document threats, get outside support as needed, and so on.

[Armageddon]

Yeah Marvel was trying to play nice with the bigots. Not a good look for Marvel

Marvel knows that’s a majority of their audience

Just look at posts on this forum

I miss when X-Books was filled with progressives

[spirit2011]

Marvel knows that’s a majority of their audience

Just look at posts on this forum

I miss when X-Books was filled with progressives

X-forum is not a complete picture of the readers. And comics need to grow new readers

[Silver Fang]

X-forum is not a complete picture of the readers. And comics need to grow new readers

I can agree. But in the end, it's no shock media caters to the bigot demographic. It's easier to live with the same status quo and ignore minorities than to fight the masses and lose lots of money until the new audience grows enough to measure up to the loss of the old.

So we get the half-assed deals of using straight white characters for minority allegory. Rahne. Straight white woman with a lover & son. She'll be the metaphorical transsexual we show trans panic for. Beats having actual transexuals in the comics.

Storm. She's around to be the token, but lets keep too much spotlight off of her. Bishop = Can of worms. Monet / Sunspot = Lightened.

Iceman. Well the topic was born on him. lol