Sina Grace talks about Marvel and Iceman - and he's NOT happy

[Snoop Dogg]

Sadcrawler deserves rights.

You know what else the X-Office killed? The bar-none-no-competition best Bobby costume.

[Maestroneto]

Sadcrawler deserves rights.

You know what else the X-Office killed? The bar-none-no-competition best Bobby costume.

It had to go because it was a costume neither created nor based off a design from before 1992.

[Tycon]

Iceman and Colossus had their best costumes here. Storm’s was cute too but her X:Red one is far superior.

[WebLurker]

I'm personally looking forward to checking him out on Go Go Power Rangers now that he's starting to write that title, and I hope BOOM! Studios treats him better than he was treated here.

Like that series. Hope he does well with it, esp. since with the main PR comic series writing out half the original cast, it might be the only place the original Power Ranger team get new stories. (I only care about the original five-member team, so, while I respect that there are fans of the other characters, I'm really disappointed that the comics are changing things up.)

[JB]

...........but that doesn’t exempt it from being -phobic or -ist. Just because one black person thinking that their white friend saying “this place is really ghetto” isn’t racist doesn’t make it not racist. But you aren’t gaining anything by dragging other people down and telling them that they’re being too sensitive or that they need to seek therapy.

Eh you're missing my point but that's OK. I'm talking about generalizations being used up and down this thread. That one kind of people only think one kind of way. In fact, a certain post seems to have disappeared because someone used a word that I'm sure others found insensitive in its use.

[Tycon]

Eh you're missing my point but that's OK. I'm talking about generalizations being used up and down this thread. That one kind of people only think one kind of way. In fact, a certain post seems to have disappeared because someone used a word that I'm sure others found insensitive in its use.

Well.............was it a slur? You are talking about generalizations and “kinds of people only thinking certain ways” without actually going in-depth about it.

[Alan2099]

Just because one black person thinking that their white friend saying “this place is really ghetto” isn’t racist doesn’t make it not racist.

... saying something is ghetto is racist now?

I honestly haven't heard that one before and I work with a black woman and a mexican man that both use the term all the time. is this just one of those things that white people can't say but everyone else can?

[Tycon]

... saying something is ghetto is racist now?

I honestly haven't heard that one before and I work with a black woman and a mexican man that both use the term all the time. is this just one of those things that white people can't say but everyone else can?

It was an example but if you’re really wondering: have you ever considered why said thing is "ghetto" or "ratchet”?

[Alan2099]

It was an example but if you’re really wondering: have you ever considered why said thing is "ghetto" or "ratchet”?

I've never actually heard anyone say anything was ratchet.

As for something being ghetto, no. I've never wondered that because when I've heard people say it, it makes sense. They said it's ghetto because the thing is poor/cheap, run down, or in bad shape, like an actual ghetto is. You don't have to be any particular race to live in a ghetto.

if you were trying to use that as an example of something racists, it's a really horrible one.

[Wiccan]

Representation. Both in comics and out. Marvel has been making an effort to do so for some time now. Plenty of low selling books went on much longer then they would have 10 years ago.

For the sake of discussion, why did it only come back as a mini if non-DM sales were so high?

By that same logic you can also ask: Why did it only come back as a mini if Marvel cares so much about representation(I honestly don't think they do when it comes to LGBT representation, and Grace seems to imply the same)?

I don't think the sales were *so* high. Just that it did better than what it did on regular sales.

[Tycon]

I've never actually heard anyone say anything was ratchet.

As for something being ghetto, no. I've never wondered that because when I've heard people say it, it makes sense. They said it's ghetto because the thing is poor/cheap, run down, or in bad shape, like an actual ghetto is. You don't have to be any particular race to live in a ghetto.

if you were trying to use that as an example of something racists, it's a really horrible one.

You.....haven’t heard anyone call something “ratchet”? Either way,

Yes, a ghetto is associated with living in poor or barely livable conditions. But socioeconomic status is almost always intrinsically tied to race. While I don’t want to go into a whole discussion about “white-out” and how improper economic restructuring following the abolition of slavery meant free black people could only go so far when it came to moving in adequate living property.

There is a great paper that dives into this exact thing that discusses why the word “ghetto” is racially charged and denotes a certain context that you truly may have not been aware of: THAT’S SO GHETTO:
A STUDY OF THE RACIAL/SOCIOECONOMIC IMPLICATIONS ASSOCIATED WITH THE TERM “GHETTO”

[kjn]

Just read Sina Grace's article. It really puts a bit of a spotlight on that systemic discrimination (be it racism, sexism, ableism, homophobia, or something else) is much more about absence of action rather than action; many small cuts rather than one big strike; the "moderate" deploring the demonstrations in Birmingham but failing to see the conditions that brought them about. The moderate turning away when the "real" racist spits.

Some of the current practices in the publishing world makes this situation even harder. Like that creators are expected to do much more of the actual marketing for the books they write (or draw). Are they being paid for that extra labour? Do the publisher have their back when something blows up? (And here the answer is almost invariably going to be no.) How many creators are good at online marketing?

What I think really was a trouble for Marvel's editors was that Grace's success was a threat to them. They didn't understand the success and knew they couldn't replicate it, thus he became a threat to their position. He landed interviews and headlines that they couldn't do, he reached markets that they couldn't understand. At the same time, he didn't succeed enough to make sure they realised they had to pursue the opening that Grace created.

[Purplevit]

Iceman and Colossus had their best costumes here. Storm’s was cute too but her X:Red one is far superior.

My favorite Colossus costume is his orange X-Force. No other is even close for me.

[Killerbee911]

Speaking of sales I keep looking hints of success for example on Amazon books like Captain Marvel(4),Ms Marvel(18) My Little Pony(20), Saga (44) Umbrella Academy(45) Walking Dead, Black Panther(47) and Miles(50) are in 50 of all graphic novels. And for context George Takei They Called Us Enemy is number 93 of all graphic novels they sell. Iceman TPBs are (62) and (99) of LGBT Graphic novels. They call us "They Called Us Enemy" is number 1 in LGBT graphic novels. It is small sample size but all the information we can see points to it not being all that successful.

[JKtheMac]

Speaking of sales I keep looking hints of success for example on Amazon books like Captain Marvel(4),Ms Marvel(18) My Little Pony(20), Saga (44) Umbrella Academy(45) Walking Dead, Black Panther(47) and Miles(50) are in 50 of all graphic novels. And for context George Takei They Called Us Enemy is number 93 of all graphic novels they sell. Iceman TPBs are (62) and (99) of LGBT Graphic novels. They call us "They Called Us Enemy" is number 1 in LGBT graphic novels. It is small sample size but all the information we can see points to it not being all that successful.

That is no real information at all. Especially when you consider the constant updating of Amazon figures they become meaningless (I believe they are now hourly, how that informs anyone is beyond me). Why are you so interested in sales anyway? It has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.

As a contrast, in my local Amazon store (UK) Iceman V1 (as a digital work) is "#23 in Gay & Lesbian Graphic Novels".

What does this tell us? Nobody can tell us. Does it sell better in the UK? Does it sell better in digital? How big is the market in the UK? How big is the market anywhere? What percentage of the market are 'Gay & Lesbian Graphic Novels'. We don't have a handle on any of these questions. Do any of us even know how high it reached at peak? How long it's tail will be? No we just don't.

The importance is its actual presence on the shelves right? A book about a character coming out as gay with a major superhero character as the lead and a Marvel logo on the cover.

When I look at the title I don't see "Customers also bought books with Northstar in." I get contemporary O5 books and Generation X. Again, this is more important than where it places in some arbitrary, hourly rank.

Plus with an hourly update how likely is it that the sales will rise today and as long as this continues to be reported. Probably quite high. Contributing to the long tail by controversy alone.

According to some estimates, its current rank in the US suggests approx 2 physical books per day. Lets face it, the book will sell out at some point and probably not be reprinted until there is a push on the character in the future, either in book or movie form. When its tail end sales will again come into play. That's the game here. Marvel are in the business of promoting and maintaining IP alongside selling books.

Even books are trivial in the long run. Take a tangential example: The biggest brand winner from X-Men Apocalypse was Ray-Ban which had an almost unprecedented brand visibility of 46% of the movie. How much did Ray-Ban pay for this? We have no idea, but the estimated advertising value of the product placement was 9-12 Million US. Where did that money go? Part of it almost certainly filtered back to Marvel Publishing as a percentage of the revenue of the movie, because the original deal, inherited by Fox, was done with them, not the MCU or Disney. Book sales are not only hard to estimate they are a minor part of a much larger money machine.

So let us do a thought experiment. One day Iceman becomes a key character in a future X-Man movie, possibly as part of the MCU. They decide to make him gay and suddenly it matters to pro LGBT brands which phone he is carrying, and which coffee he drinks. Apple and Starbucks are very keen on this demographic and so are their competitors. That decision may make much more money than the books, but it is directly as a result of Bobby being gay in those books. The editors and powers that be at Marvel should be thinking about that. It sounds to me like they are not paying attention to an important potential revenue steam.