Sina Grace talks about Marvel and Iceman - and he's NOT happy

[Maestroneto]

Another thing that I saw brought up on twitter but not here is that Marvel’s PR has changed over completely for the last two years. If you look at the Hickman push and even that video featuring Tini Howard, Leah Williams, and Vita Ayala, the PR troubles may be ending soon (also I saw some people claim that the timing of Sina posting this was odd considering that video).

Another thing is that when the X-Men and F4 fell out of favor with Marvel the X-Office was immediately hamstrung and stayed that way until very recently. Think about it: Lemire, who sucks at teams, writing the flagship, Hallum not getting his favorite character, Ramos, Bagley, and Land as the artists, and the only solos were two (admittedly incredible) Wolverine titles. This continued into ResurrXion with Bunn getting forced on Blue, Hallum getting his Jean Grey plans fucked up and then being unable to secure work because social life problems kept him from hitting deadlines, Red getting cut off at the knees, etc. Hell, I know we all hated the idea, but Guggenheim got his wedding plans sunk by someone who has never written an X-book in his life (and I honestly don’t believe he wrote the wedding issue, I think someone else ghost wrote it for him, but that’s another thing).

I think a lot of the blame rests at Panic and Ketchum’s feet (another reminder that Panic fired Wendig from that Vader book for a bullshit reason) for creative hamstringing but the real problem is corporate greed. I can only imagine the kind of X-Men stories we would’ve gotten if Bunn and Hallum were allowed to do their thing and Marvel wasn’t trying to “screw with Fox” or whatever.

You forgot delaying Uncanny X-Men #600 by six months despite it being finished on time (Marvel did something similar with the final Fraction/Aja Hawkeye issue, delaying it for a year after Fraction quit Marvel over Inhuman disagreements).

[spirit2011]

You forgot delaying Uncanny X-Men #600 by six months despite it being finished on time (Marvel did something similar with the final Fraction/Aja Hawkeye issue, delaying it for a year, after Fraction quit Marvel over Inhuman disagreements).

I remember that...

Now we got new info that Bendis got screwed over the mandate to stop promoting x-men books.

It is good that the PR team is completely different now, I don't remember Marvel promoting many things on pride month before

[Snoop Dogg]

Another thing is that when the X-Men and F4 fell out of favor with Marvel the X-Office was immediately hamstrung and stayed that way until very recently. Think about it: Lemire, who sucks at teams, writing the flagship, Hallum not getting his favorite character, Ramos, Bagley, and Land as the artists, and the only solos were two (admittedly incredible) Wolverine titles. This continued into ResurrXion with Bunn getting forced on Blue, Hallum getting his Jean Grey plans fucked up and then being unable to secure work because social life problems kept him from hitting deadlines, Red getting cut off at the knees, etc. Hell, I know we all hated the idea, but Guggenheim got his wedding plans sunk by someone who has never written an X-book in his life (and I honestly don’t believe he wrote the wedding issue, I think someone else ghost wrote it for him, but that’s another thing)

uh
why are actual legends ramos and bagley in this paragraph

[Bruce Wayne]

I think a lot of the blame rests at Panic and Ketchum’s feet (another reminder that Panic fired Wendig from that Vader book for a bullshit reason) for creative hamstringing but the real problem is corporate greed. I can only imagine the kind of X-Men stories we would’ve gotten if Bunn and Hallum were allowed to do their thing and Marvel wasn’t trying to “screw with Fox” or whatever.

Mark Paniccia got the x-books and ff when they were both in the outs at Marvel, that should tell you exactly Marvel's expectations for him and the x-books. Or the fact that Mike Marts the guy before him, up and left the company after returning to Marvel from DC and had a bunch of tweets favored on his twitter account about Marvel screwing up the X-Men.

[Rosebunse]

I wish Marvel would promote LGBTQ stuff. Not just for equality, but because that is simply where the money is. Those kids are the ones going to be buying the comics, trades, and/or merch. Our hobby needs new blood!

[bigstupidjellyfish]

uh
why are actual legends ramos and bagley in this paragraph

They’re good and I like them, but Ramos’ X-Men work pales in comparison to his Spider-Man (except his covers, his X-Men covers are cool) and Bagley is just... very plain. A step down after Immonen and Asrar.

Also, even if I like Ramos, there are more that hate him, and I think Marvel was cognizant of that when he was cast for Extraordinary.

[comeatmebro]

They’re good and I like them, but Ramos’ X-Men work pales in comparison to his Spider-Man (except his covers, his X-Men covers are cool) and Bagley is just... very plain. A step down after Immonen and Asrar.

Also, even if I like Ramos, there are more that hate him, and I think Marvel was cognizant of that when he was cast for Extraordinary.

Ramos is a way better and more popular artist than Hopeless is as a writer

[skyvolt2000]

Marvel is in the business of making money and with comics already being a niche market that isn't exactly lighting up the sales charts they can't keep books alive that aren't selling. In all honesty iceman got way more of a chance than most books do, as someone who really liked the Falcon, Luke Cage, and Mosaic series none of those books got a second chance after being cancelled and they didn't get a one shot to wrap up the series either. When you add on to that that Iceman was a character who has been around for 50+ years and was suddenly changed into a lgbt character in a clumsily handled manner, it's hard to argue that this series was set up for success.

Well it's harder to do that when those books are NOT welcome in the first place. There is a reason a lot of them find better success outside of comic book stores.
You got folks who DON'T want those books around and will do EVERYTHING in their power to make that book fail.

That is NOT limited to comicgate. You got a line of folks who feel like diversity does NOT belong at Marvel or DC.
Every time book order numbers come out and a thread is made-it ONLY targets POC, LGBT & women lead books.

It's okay to make a first issue $5 for the likes of C-Z-list white guys. But we got an issue if it's a POC like Mosaic.

I have YET to see someone say "we need to band together and get this book AXED because it should not be made in the first place." " I can NOT go into a comic book store because there is a (blank) with a book." "I have bought (blank) for 30 years but I draw the line over a (blank) in a book." "We have to band together and get (blank) out of the books (blank) RUINED the franchise." "(Blank) is the reason why you don't have a Fantastic Four book." With blank being a WHITE STRAIGHT GUY.
Yet I have heard that with POC. Especially towards Moon Girl, Duke Thomas, Riri Williams, Luke Cage, Falcon, Miles & Black Panther. With a STRONG hate for Moon Girl, Duke & Riri.

"Marvel is a BUSINESS" keeps getting said when it's POC & LGBT books.
RARELY said about these white guys who books fail. It's "Kudos to Marvel for trying."

Also the quote by grace where he says that marvel " needed to give him more work" in an effort to prove to the trolls that he wasn't a diversity hire, just rubs me the wrong way,in almost every business, more work and more projects need to be earned by performance and sales, saying that marvel needed to give him more work despite not really doing well in either of those areas is kinda expecting unrealistic thing from marvel as a business.

He is JUSTIFIED in saying that when we have SEEN Marvel & DC keep rehiring the same white writer guys over and over again.
And many of them get books where SALES are not going to be an issue. What I mean by that is WHO is on the COVER ensures orders.
Put the worst white writer you can think of on Batman-that book will NEVER sniff below 50K because it's BATMAN. Same if it is Nightwing, Red Hood, Teen Titans, Titans, X-Men (pick a color) or Avengers.

Grace is preaching with Priest cried about for YEARS. Priest did not want only black lead books.

Why couldn't Grace be given someone like Rich Rider. He can't do any worst than the others. You see what Priest did with Deathstroke-his second longest run to date.

[Triniking1234]

I don't know what you read but Grace wasn't pulling the Priest act.

[Killerbee911]

Some of the stuff writer is saying is right but he is the wrong messenger because he wrote a bad book imo It is hard to take his points as seriously with backdrop of well his stuff was just bad.

[Confuzzled]

Some of the stuff writer is saying is right but he is the wrong messenger because he wrote a bad book imo It is hard to take his points as seriously with backdrop of well his stuff was just bad.

Not the objective truth. Iceman was a critical success so it's hard making a case that it was a "bad" book, especially since it connected with so many different members of the fandom so deeply.

In fact, kudos to Grace to be the one to do it. It sucks to be a martyr but someone has to raise their voice to ensure everybody else has a better time. A woman writer would've been completely skewered by the trolls if she had done the same thing.

[KangMiRae]

I’m sure there are lots of valid points Grace has made, but it’s diluted by the fact that he is a bad writer. His books were bad. I’m surprised he was given so many chances.

I also think many of these new writers in the X-Office are not aware of how, both the industry, and the X-Line work. Someone should have told them that when you write X-Men you will always be constrained. Lemeire and Morrison both talked about it before.

Seems as if these young, new writers are still wet behind the ears.

[Strong Girl Daken]

Wow so many beacons of objectivity in this thread really contributing to this discussion.

[PsychoEFrost]

Wow so many beacons of objectivity in this thread really contributing to this discussion.

Yep, despite having one of the most critically acclaimed runs with excellent sales for a low market character, apparently Sina Grace is a total hack that the users here could easily do better then. Funny how that works.

[Killerbee911]

Yep, despite having one of the most critically acclaimed runs with excellent sales for a low market character, apparently Sina Grace is a total hack that the users here could easily do better then. Funny how that works.

Excellent sales??

Iceman 1 $3.99 Marvel 34,202
Iceman 2 $3.99 Marvel 22,075
Iceman 3 $3.99 Marvel 15,743
Iceman 4 $3.99 Marvel 14,056
Iceman 5 $3.99 Marvel 13,267
Iceman 6 $3.99 Marvel 34,200
Iceman 7 $3.99 Marvel 12,677
Iceman 8 $3.99 Marvel 11,847
Iceman 9 $3.99 Marvel 11,282
Iceman 10 $3.99 Marvel 10,536
Iceman 11 $3.99 Marvel 10,200

Iceman 1 $3.99 Marvel 38,902
Iceman 2 $3.99 Marvel 12,941
Iceman 3 $3.99 Marvel 11,468
Iceman 4 $3.99 Marvel 10,479
Iceman 5 $3.99 Marvel 9,800

I didn't call him hack or bad writer, I don't think the Iceman book was particularly good comic especially the second run. The book is critically acclaim in one demographic(find a award other than Glaad) and primarily because its handling a character of LGBT background which is not necessarily indicator of a great superhero comic which has more areas that you need to be successful other than good characterization of LGBTQ characters . I fully understand why some people connect with it more but clearly the book didn't hold audience and when any books numbers are within cancellation with in 3 or 4 issue it is fair to call it a book bad. I think he is very right in some of thing he is saying but I can't separate the fact that independently from what he is saying from I don't the book was very good overall.

What about the first run numbers suggest that this book should have gotten more time? His book was given a second shot that many books don't get and he wrote what imo was a really bad book. For me the message is clouded by "oh well the product wasn't that good" and maybe some the push back/issues is because of that.