Sina Grace talks about Marvel and Iceman - and he's NOT happy

[Dthirds3]

Marvel had and always will be garbage at promoting smaller titles, and standing by creators who are being harrassed

[JB]

I'm a bit confused at what exactly is his point here...

Same.

"Truly, I don’t even think of this as discrimination, I call it general ineptness". Fair enough.

[Huntsman Spider]

I am not surprised. I do hate that he has likely canceled himself at Marvel, but at least he gets to live his truth. Sina got so much hate from comics gaters. I know because I used to "debate" some of them on youtube and other message boards. He got a lot of homophobic attacks from some conservative fans. It is sad that he did not get support, but it is not surprising.

I want to feel positive toward the Marvel editorial teams, but it is hard when we get messages like this. The sad truth is that these editors probably think they are progressive and/or liberal and yet they are a huge part of the problem. The problem is straight guys (on average and in general) do not know what it is like to be LGBT in this world. They don't understand the lived experience of minority groups. It is hard for them to empathize with the "other".

I loved Sina's first run on Iceman. I admit I wasn't a big fan of his second run. But I am a fan of his and I think he has a lot of talent. I hate that he had to go through a horrible experience at Marvel and I hope someone at Marvel does the right thing and addresses this issue. Until then they will be seen as highly problematic from some of the LGBT fans.

Generally agreed, especially with the bolded. The problem with Marvel, as with all corporations, is that the ultimate and sole purpose is to make money and turn a profit from consumers, and if the presumption is still that the vast majority of consumers are straight, white, and male, then of course the corporations will take the path of least resistance and primarily cater to that demographic. That includes Marvel, alas, and despite the push for greater inclusion and representation this past decade, giving in to the virulent pushback from those certain corners of that particular demographic was an inevitability, as in the end, profits are all that matter to corporations. Principles and ideals and values are all well and good, but the ultimate value of a corporation is how many zeroes are in front of a dollar sign. If too much negative publicity is starting to chip away at those zeroes . . . well, very few corporations are willing to go broke for the sake of principle, especially when it's literally their job and responsibility to make money. Just how the cookie crumbles.

[Havok83]

Well I wasnt happy with his books. I might have felt bad if the writing spoke for itself but his writing was horrible IMO. BYE! Wont miss him

[Anduinel]

Unhappy, but not surprised. It's still going on with current books, and it comes from higher up than individual editors.

[JB]

The problem with Marvel, as with all corporations, is that the ultimate and sole purpose is to make money and turn a profit from consumers, and if the presumption is still that the vast majority of consumers are straight, white, and male, then of course the corporations will take the path of least resistance and primarily cater to that demographic.

You make a good point and it reminds me of when I told a few of my gay friends about Sina and the Iceman book. They shrugged and said they don't read comics and weren't going to pick one up just because the star character is gay. At the end of the day, sales need to happen.

[Tycon]

This is why we need just as much inclusivity in editorial (and creative teams and the “higher ups”) as we sort of get with the in-universe characters. Maybe then we wouldn’t have half the books that come out each week be so tonedeaf and books can get the attention they deserve. Maybe Sina doesn’t want to completely burn bridges, but it’s discrimination whether or not the intention was to do so. They looked at Iceman, gave him a book, and thought the progress just stopped there so they can get the accolades while trying not to make it “too gay.”

[Bruce Wayne]

You may be asking if my Iceman book was any good, or if I’m just being sour grapes over a bad work experience. Believe me, I asked that, too. From the get-go, my first editor asserted that Iceman would be DOA if it were “too gay,” while also telling me to prepare for a cancellation anyway, given that most solo X-Men titles don’t last beyond a year.

This guy doesn't seem to have any empathy and understanding for the situation faced by his editors. His editor in question was given a thankless job of managing the x-books and FF when both had apparently fallen out of favor with the corporate leadership with his predecessor having quit Marvel after just short of two years (after returning from a long stint at DC).

[MechaJeanix]

This is why we need just as much inclusivity in editorial (and creative teams and the “higher ups”) as we sort of get with the in-universe characters. Maybe then we wouldn’t have half the books that come out each week be so tonedeaf and books can get the attention they deserve. Maybe Sina doesn’t want to completely burn bridges, but it’s discrimination whether or not the intention was to do so. They looked at Iceman, gave him a book, and thought the progress just stopped there so they can get the accolades while trying not to make it “too gay.”

This. We need diverse writers but we also need diverse editors and others in management positions. Otherwise we'll keep hearing stories like this.

[Huntsman Spider]

You make a good point and it reminds me of when I told a few of my gay friends about Sina and the Iceman book. They shrugged and said they don't read comics and weren't going to pick one up just because the star character is gay. At the end of the day, sales need to happen.

That's also something I've seen these people attack those advocating for greater inclusion and representation in comics over, the old canard of, "You don't actually read comics, so why do you think you have a right to dictate to us [the so-called "real" comic book readers/fans] what or who gets included in them [as characters or content creators]?" It's almost always meant more to silence people criticizing not only lack of inclusion and representation for women, nonwhite minorities, religious minorities, and LGBT+ people, but also negative, stereotype-laden depictions of those same groups. It's further compounded by the persistent idea that so-called "others" or "outsiders" have to prove themselves first before being validated in the eyes of the dominant majority, and it permeates (nearly) every aspect of various societies, cultures, and even subcultures like comics fandom. Frankly, that gatekeeping B.S. is rooted in nothing more than pathological fear and contempt of "outsiders" defiling, diluting, or corrupting something the "insiders" wish to keep "pure," i.e. for them and them alone, and that's something that has to stop, one way or another.

[mreddie]

We got this same venting last year with Chelsea Cain. Editorwise, they do need more inclusion because it's still mostly all male and white.

Also, Cain and Grace basically saying Marvel does nothing to defend their authors social media wise and it fits with letting their authors go loose on Twitter and not be punished for it. It's only when you get the X Men gold controversy when **** hits the fan.

Sucks Grace got **** to work with, it doesn't help he got lost in the shuffle when new people got in and this was likely getting canned anyways for the Hickman stuff.

The promotion thing is so bizarre, they barely promote any of the books unless it's an event or some big swerve and worse, they never tell you to go to the LCS.

[Maestroneto]

This is why we need just as much inclusivity in editorial (and creative teams and the “higher ups”) as we sort of get with the in-universe characters. Maybe then we wouldn’t have half the books that come out each week be so tonedeaf and books can get the attention they deserve. Maybe Sina doesn’t want to completely burn bridges, but it’s discrimination whether or not the intention was to do so. They looked at Iceman, gave him a book, and thought the progress just stopped there so they can get the accolades while trying not to make it “too gay.”

Daniel Ketchum is a gay Asian man. Of course, besides apparently not wanting Iceman too gay, he also edited the tonedeaf book to rule them all, Uncanny Avengers (and the brain behind the lily white, straight as hell Resurxion line).

[Snoop Dogg]

Is that four creator kerfuffles from the ResurXXXtentacion saga? Syaf, Bunn, Hallum, and Grace? Am I forgetting somethin'? Although Bunn and the Hopester didn't start a **** blizzard on Twitter.

[Badou]

I think that any writer on a smaller book would probably feel the same way if asked about their book. That they feel the book would have done better with more promotion and the publisher could have done more to help the book succeed. No writer is going to shoulder all the blame themselves. At the end of the day if the book or property isn't turning the profit a company wants then they aren't going to support it for too long. So they are always going to go back to the same old stuff and promote those because they know it is profitable, or at least more profitable than different books.

[Tycon]

This. We need diverse writers but we also need diverse editors and others in management positions. Otherwise we'll keep hearing stories like this.

I can only imagine what the Age of X-Man creators like Ayala, Williams, and McGuire went through, especially since this was to guide us to the grand lord Hickman.

Daniel Ketchum is a gay Asian man. Of course, besides apparently not wanting Iceman too gay, he also edited the tonedeaf book to rule them all, Uncanny Avengers (and the brain behind the lily white, straight as hell Resurxion line).

...............................................wel l. And to screw up my own point, Robinson was the one that let Monet look white in Weapon X.