View Poll Results: We the jury find the Defendant, Scott Summers, to be...

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  • Guilty of Murder in the First (or Second) Degree

    13 9.77%
  • Guilty of Voluntary (or Involuntary) Manslaughter

    13 9.77%
  • Not Guilty by way of Self-Defense

    25 18.80%
  • Not Guilty by reason of Insanity

    62 46.62%
  • Not Guilty (Other)

    20 15.04%
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  1. #166
    Extraordinary Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ermac View Post
    Also, Aaron's Logan is one of the worse x-characters ever. The character was so damaged it had to die and go to character rehab.
    The sad part is that he actually had a good take in the Wolverine solo, however, once he decided Logan had to become Charles Xavier, it all went to Hell.

  2. #167
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    I liked Wolverine being to one taking a less controversial stand. It was fun seeing Cyclops being the rebel and Wolverine trying to keep things in order just for a while.
    Of course many people didn't like Wolverine being the next Xavier but i enjoyed it, Wolverine is not a monster, he was at one point and he will probably act like one one day but at that moment he joined the avengers and created the school he was tryng to be better, to inspire and help people.

  3. #168
    Extraordinary Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    The problem it's impossible to put Wolverine in that position without making him an hypocrite, and the fact he barely spent time in that mansion, having solo adventures all around the world, fighting with not one, but two Avengers teams, and also running a death squad, makes him irresponsible and negligent.

  4. #169
    Mighty Member Hush's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    He had a small fragment, and went insane almost immediately.
    Not exactly, it took some time before he became crazy. After firing the bullet that contained the Phoenix Force, Wolverine was ripped apart at a subatomic level by the Phoenix Force and died, but when Spidey resurrected him, the Phoenix force stayed inside of him and as time went on, it grew:



    We don't know how much of the Phoenix Force Logan possessed during this story but it wasn't just hosting the Phoenix Force that turned him "crazy", it was a consequence of dying, being reborn, hosting the phoenix force, travelling through time and entering in a berserker rage against Czar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Ah, but what's the full context for Wolverine having the PF?
    Mojo hired a man named Czar who was armed with the time diamonds (diamonds that give the user control over time and space) and most especially the "Time Bat " (a bat covered with those time diamonds) to mess with Wolverine and Spider-man in order to boost the audiences of his tv show.

    Using the time diamonds, Czar sent both Logan and Peter back in time to the Mesozoic era where they lived here for a while. Peter became and hermit trying to find a way to go back to their time while Logan became the leader of a group of primitive people the "small folks" to whom he taught how to make beer, how to fight against other tribes who wanted to kill them and how to be more than just animals. But the Cretaceous-Tertiary extinction event happened and unknown to both Logan and Peter the asteroid that was going to destroy everything was covered in time diamonds and once it crashed on earth it transported them to the future.

    Thanks to Logan's actions in the past, the Small Folks, who had been living in the shadows for years, took over after the fall of human society and tried to rebuild the world. In this new world, Peter was a teacher and Logan an hermit seen as a Messiah by the small folks because of his actions during the Mesozoic era. Unfortunately for the earth, something was coming to destroy it: "Doom the living planet" (Doom who transfered his consciousness inside Ego) which prompted the descendants of the small folks to implore Wolverine to help them.

    One of the small folks discovered a bunker inside the ruins of a place that belonged to the X-Men, inside that bunker they found the phoenix gun armed with a phoenix bullet containing the power of the Phoenix Force, using this gun would kill Doom but it would also kill its wielder. Peter wanted to sacrifice himself but Logan knocked him out and went to face Doom, he used the gun, killed Doom and was ripped apart at a subatomic level by the Phoenix Force.

    Logan stayed dead for a while until, Peter was able to make his cosmic cube worked (prior to Doom's arrival, Peter had been working on this cosmic cube in the hope of using it against Doom but he never managed to make it work). He used it to resurrect Logan and shortly after both of them were transported to the past (Logan back to when Spider-Man just got his powers and was a wrestler and Peter back to when Wolverine was on the run from Dog Logan just after the first Origin mini).

    As the Phoenix Force inside Wolverine was growing, Logan started to use it unconsciously as he was travelling through time. First he foresaw the upcoming events that would changed Peter into becoming the hero we know (not stopping the burglar and the death of Uncle Ben), then after being transported in time, both him and Peter were freezed in time by Czar until Logan was able to create a burst of energy with the Phoenix Force that overpowered Czar and restored time.
    Next he started to see both the past and the future thanks to the Phoenix Force when he told the history of the time diamonds to Peter and finally as he was fighting against Czar again he entered into a berserker rage and he slowly turned into the Dark Phoenix as a result of everything that happened to him during this story.

    Under the control of the Phoenix Force, Logan told to Peter that the Phoenix was hungry and that worlds must burn (similar to what happened at the start of AVX) but before he could dod anything Spider-Man talked him down, Logan regained his senses and was able to reject the Phoenix Force. It's funny but Spider-Man was also really good at talking both the Phoenix powered Magik and Colossus down during AVX when you think about it lol.

    After that, they were stuck in time again in the 19th century but this time for more than 3 years until they managed to find a way home.

    It's been a while since I read this story but I think that should cover it especially in regards to the context of Wolverine having the Phoenix force.
    Last edited by Hush; 07-03-2019 at 09:51 AM.

  5. #170
    Extraordinary Member Glio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    The problem it's impossible to put Wolverine in that position without making him an hypocrite, and the fact he barely spent time in that mansion, having solo adventures all around the world, fighting with not one, but two Avengers teams, and also running a death squad, makes him irresponsible and negligent.
    The problem with Wolverine is that he's in too many comics at the same time, period. It is impossible to have a solid characterization when there are like six different authors writing series with him at the same time. The result is that the inconsistencies make him look hypocritical.

  6. #171
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    The problem it's impossible to put Wolverine in that position without making him an hypocrite, and the fact he barely spent time in that mansion, having solo adventures all around the world, fighting with not one, but two Avengers teams, and also running a death squad, makes him irresponsible and negligent.
    Personally, i don't really have a problem with Wolverine being an hypocrite, as i said before, he is not some sort of role model and he is self aware enough to realize that he is one. My problem is more with trying to present it as the one with the high moral ground in every post-Schism situation, that just made him into something less interesting and compelling for me.
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
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  7. #172
    Peter Scott SpiderClops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    The problem with Wolverine is that he's in too many comics at the same time, period. It is impossible to have a solid characterization when there are like six different authors writing series with him at the same time. The result is that the inconsistencies make him look hypocritical.
    I don't think Logan being hypocritical has much to do with him being in too many books. Batman is always in way too many books, but I don't ever hear 'inconsistent characterization' argument with him(maybe inconsistent power levels, but that's a different beast). So are Spider-Man, Superman and a few others. But they never get as much inconsistent characterization as Wolverine.

  8. #173
    Extraordinary Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiderClops View Post
    I don't think Logan being hypocritical has much to do with him being in too many books. Batman is always in way too many books, but I don't ever hear 'inconsistent characterization' argument with him(maybe inconsistent power levels, but that's a different beast). So are Spider-Man, Superman and a few others. But they never get as much inconsistent characterization as Wolverine.
    The problem is writers trying to put him in roles in which he clearly doesn't fit and/or do things that clearly clash with the fact he's in a dozen different books, which is what Aaron trying to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    Personally, i don't really have a problem with Wolverine being an hypocrite, as i said before, he is not some sort of role model and he is self aware enough to realize that he is one. My problem is more with trying to present it as the one with the high moral ground in every post-Schism situation, that just made him into something less interesting and compelling for me.
    Good points.

  9. #174
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiderClops View Post
    I don't think Logan being hypocritical has much to do with him being in too many books. Batman is always in way too many books, but I don't ever hear 'inconsistent characterization' argument with him(maybe inconsistent power levels, but that's a different beast). So are Spider-Man, Superman and a few others. But they never get as much inconsistent characterization as Wolverine.
    Batman has a change of charactherization since Miller's Year One and how he behave toward his allies can vary from him being kind of aloof and rough but generally well meaning or a huge jerk that thinks that only him knows what is at stake, there are fans that want him back to a pre-Miller's version but they aren't many. Superman is a whole other bag because can't agreed in how he is supposed to behave in many aspect (beyond the basics part), when i was in that board.we have constants discussion of how his attitude should be about certain things. Before OMD i always found Peter pretty consistent most of the time with some weird moments, but nothing that bad, i feel the same about Logan, before House of M and Aaron i didn't found hard to reconcile him with his Byrne/Clarmemont days.

    But that's just my opinion, i'm sure that someone else could give a better rundown.
    Last edited by TheCape; 07-03-2019 at 12:26 PM.
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  10. #175
    Fire and life incarnate! phoenixzero23's Avatar
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    I think one of the causes of this is that Wolverine is a very versatile character. He works as a superhero but he also does as an antihero, he can be funny and serious. He can work on so many different situations and with so many people that each writer just takes the aspects that work for his/her story. Doesn't mean he is an Hypocrite.
    It is like in real life people act different in front of their parents, friends, co-workers, etc.

  11. #176
    Astonishing Member TheDeadSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hush View Post
    Not exactly, it took some time before he became crazy. After firing the bullet that contained the Phoenix Force, Wolverine was ripped apart at a subatomic level by the Phoenix Force and died, but when Spidey resurrected him, the Phoenix force stayed inside of him and as time went on, it grew:



    We don't know how much of the Phoenix Force Logan possessed during this story but it wasn't just hosting the Phoenix Force that turned him "crazy", it was a consequence of dying, being reborn, hosting the phoenix force, travelling through time and entering in a berserker rage against Czar.



    Mojo hired a man named Czar who was armed with the time diamonds (diamonds that give the user control over time and space) and most especially the "Time Bat " (a bat covered with those time diamonds) to mess with Wolverine and Spider-man in order to boost the audiences of his tv show.

    Using the time diamonds, Czar sent both Logan and Peter back in time to the Mesozoic era where they lived here for a while. Peter became and hermit trying to find a way to go back to their time while Logan became the leader of a group of primitive people the "small folks" to whom he taught how to make beer, how to fight against other tribes who wanted to kill them and how to be more than just animals. But the Cretaceous-Tertiary extinction event happened and unknown to both Logan and Peter the asteroid that was going to destroy everything was covered in time diamonds and once it crashed on earth it transported them to the future.

    Thanks to Logan's actions in the past, the Small Folks, who had been living in the shadows for years, took over after the fall of human society and tried to rebuild the world. In this new world, Peter was a teacher and Logan an hermit seen as a Messiah by the small folks because of his actions during the Mesozoic era. Unfortunately for the earth, something was coming to destroy it: "Doom the living planet" (Doom who transfered his consciousness inside Ego) which prompted the descendants of the small folks to implore Wolverine to help them.

    One of the small folks discovered a bunker inside the ruins of a place that belonged to the X-Men, inside that bunker they found the phoenix gun armed with a phoenix bullet containing the power of the Phoenix Force, using this gun would kill Doom but it would also kill its wielder. Peter wanted to sacrifice himself but Logan knocked him out and went to face Doom, he used the gun, killed Doom and was ripped apart at a subatomic level by the Phoenix Force.

    Logan stayed dead for a while until, Peter was able to make his cosmic cube worked (prior to Doom's arrival, Peter had been working on this cosmic cube in the hope of using it against Doom but he never managed to make it work). He used it to resurrect Logan and shortly after both of them were transported to the past (Logan back to when Spider-Man just got his powers and was a wrestler and Peter back to when Wolverine was on the run from Dog Logan just after the first Origin mini).

    As the Phoenix Force inside Wolverine was growing, Logan started to use it unconsciously as he was travelling through time. First he foresaw the upcoming events that would changed Peter into becoming the hero we know (not stopping the burglar and the death of Uncle Ben), then after being transported in time, both him and Peter were freezed in time by Czar until Logan was able to create a burst of energy with the Phoenix Force that overpowered Czar and restored time.
    Next he started to see both the past and the future thanks to the Phoenix Force when he told the history of the time diamonds to Peter and finally as he was fighting against Czar again he entered into a berserker rage and he slowly turned into the Dark Phoenix as a result of everything that happened to him during this story.

    Under the control of the Phoenix Force, Logan told to Peter that the Phoenix was hungry and that worlds must burn (similar to what happened at the start of AVX) but before he could dod anything Spider-Man talked him down, Logan regained his senses and was able to reject the Phoenix Force. It's funny but Spider-Man was also really good at talking both the Phoenix powered Magik and Colossus down during AVX when you think about it lol.

    After that, they were stuck in time again in the 19th century but this time for more than 3 years until they managed to find a way home.

    It's been a while since I read this story but I think that should cover it especially in regards to the context of Wolverine having the Phoenix force.
    Huh, well that's quite informational. Did not know about any of this. At the same time, this completely supports the insanity argument for the thread. So, thanks for both.
    "This is starting to sound like a bad comic book plot"
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  12. #177
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDeadSpace View Post
    Huh, well that's quite informational. Did not know about any of this. At the same time, this completely supports the insanity argument for the thread. So, thanks for both.
    That mini is a bit weird, but is pretty fun for the most part.
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    Wolverine, Venom Annual # 1 (2018)
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  13. #178
    Incredible Member ermac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixzero23 View Post
    I liked Wolverine being to one taking a less controversial stand. It was fun seeing Cyclops being the rebel and Wolverine trying to keep things in order just for a while.
    Of course many people didn't like Wolverine being the next Xavier but i enjoyed it, Wolverine is not a monster, he was at one point and he will probably act like one one day but at that moment he joined the avengers and created the school he was tryng to be better, to inspire and help people.
    Don't you think the approach was a little bit one-sided? The whole School started hating Scott and calling him every chance they got. His mistakes weren't much different from Xavier's, Logan's or the possessed X-Men of the week. The reaction wasn't proportional.

    Beast using the Legay Virus to commit genocide? Destroyed the time stream on a petty personal vendetta? Ok

    Logan wants to gut Hope? Keeps his X-Force and chases Apoca as a kid? Kills his own children? Ok, you're Headmaster now

    Magneto, Mystique, Sabertooth join X-Men? Strange but ok

    Scott: a
    X-Men: you're magneto nowww!!!!'11!!


    Civil War was kind of like this. They pushed Cap to be right and Tony to be wrong as subtle as an earthquake.

  14. #179
    Astonishing Member TheDeadSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    That mini is a bit weird, but is pretty fun for the most part.
    What's the mini named?
    "This is starting to sound like a bad comic book plot"
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    “Evil is evil...lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same."
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  15. #180
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDeadSpace View Post
    What's the mini named?
    Astonishing Spider-Man & Wolverine Vol.1 #1-6
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
    Wolverine, Venom Annual # 1 (2018)
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