Rebirth missing in Action: Where is Cyborg, John Stewart, Jakeem Thunder, BL...

[iron chimp]

I think the key point is that if enough readers showed their support for more of the minority characters, DC would be convinced to give us more / treat them better. But, unfortunately, I don't think DC has really seen enough wide-spread support for that. They see the bigger support for Batman and other classic white characters, so that's what they tend to give us more of.

And, yes, people may say DC doesn't put the "big name" writers and artists on more minority-starring books, but DC may not have as much say on that unless those big-name creators express a firm interest in such projects first.

But then again, I'm not in the industry, so what do I know?

As far as I know DC have or had very recently Terrifics, Naomi, Michael Cray, American Carnage and it would seem Dceased - all written and drawn by some of the very best talent they have. So basically a very good range of different books spanning the whole gamut of DC imprints

[Dr. Ellingham]

I don't think it has anything to do with entitlement as much as it has to do with wanting something very specific from DC Comics that other comic book companies have no problem giving us.

The second part of your sentence is pretty much the definition of entitlement - "they should provide what I want". And of course, we all want what we want, which is fine. But no business is obligated to sell you anything. They make a product, they hope it sells.

DC's publishing / IP strategy isn't based on you, me, or any specific fans' wants. Their objective is to create revenue-generating content for their primary money-making IPs - Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Teen Titans, etc. It's their strategy to succeed or fail with.

Fans either consume content, or don't, and the amount of consumption determines revenue, and that informs their go-forward strategy (and how long their leadership stays in place).

And "looking elsewhere if you're not satisfied" only works if you're willing to read about characters that are NOT from DC Comics.

Exactly - you have to be willing to walk away if their strategy doesn't suit you. Beyond their three biggest properties (Supes, Bats, Wondy), nothing is guaranteed. DC may decide your - or my - favorite characters aren't valuable, and put them on the shelf indefinitely. Or use them in ways you don't approve. Constructive feedback is nice, but gone are the days that a big company like DC listens to a few people on a message board. The only valid feedback is sales declining to the point they have to course-correct.

[Wakeneuron]

Maybe DC should just not publish Black Superheroes any more. I mean seriously, what's the point? Especially if you're not going to treat them right.

It's hard to get excited for new heroes like Naomi and the upcoming Green Lantern series when there's a very good probability that they will just be cast aside and not even mentioned any more.

Why not give some characters like Cyborg, Bronze Tiger or Vixen to IDW or Lion Forge where at the very least we'll have a mini-series every couple of years.

[iron chimp]

Then what was the point of the thread if the books are just going to suck?

[SiegePerilous02]

JSA did well enough to get two spinoffs before New 52.

Some how that book was about to make use of Michael Holt & Jakeem.

DC tossed them because Batman and his friends could not be made to look OLD-despite most of them having kids now.

In what way would Michael Holt (who is roughly in the same age group) and Jakeem Thunder (who is unconnected to them) make Batman and his friends look old? I doubt that's the reason they were tossed. And the JSA should be on Earth-2 anyway where they can have a retired/dead Batman.

The kids are probably a bad idea in the long run.

Probably not. It just get noticeable when you competition has no issue using blacks as the leads.

I am not talking Marvel Comics. Relay, Freeze, Excellence, Black, Fence, Backstaggers, Bone Parish, Source and others.

They may just have better black characters to work with as leads.
Looking just at Marvel, the likes of Black Panther, Storm and Luke Cage just seem more appealing than what DC has to offer. That brings us to a larger "what came first, the chicken or the egg" scenario where we wonder if Marvel's black characters were always inherently better or if they just got more care and attention not afforded to DC's black characters, and they got it earlier. In which case, DC as a company has to make up for lost time, and that's difficult to do.

Even with Black Panther killing it at the box office, Marvel still chose the big name Silver Age guy that debuted in Lee/Kirby's Fantastic Four as their first black lead, not a lesser known character.

Careful not to mention Terrifics or Naomi.

There is also House of Whispers.

[mikelmcknight72]

I am sorry but saying "I am not interested" would not be acceptable to YOUR BOSS. It might fly with Dan but that black woman who killed Vertigo is not going to her bosses with that excuse.

No one is going to accept "I am not interested." nor "Comicsgate" nor "bigoted comic book stores." as an excuse.

Someone will get FIRED. It won't be anyone ranking at Dan's level or higher. It will be YOU the editor on the way out.

YOU as an employee of a company can NOT tell folks go somewhere else. Because doing that is why DC is in the mess that it is in.

Does Black Panther have to make another billion? Win 3 more Oscars?

If I was an employee I would see a HUGE issue with that. All you are doing is giving more power to your competition.

It's not that hard to do 3 issue mini here, guest spot in a book there, a team role, one shot, backups and role in an event.

I am not asking for the Carol Danvers deal. Do the LITTLE things that eventually pay off.

Even in a workplace where quality measurement are more object, you have to put the right resource on the right job. Someone with no attention to detail should never be given an area of responsibility requiring attention to detail. Doing so would hurt the employee, hurt the employer, and potentially upset a client.

Comics are very, very subjective. If you want past characterization respected, don't put Bendis on the story. If you want subtle writing, don't put JMS on it. If you don't want esoteric, trippy writing, Morrison and Gaiman probably aren't right for the job. So that is a factor.

John Stewart and Victor Stone are both character that have received a good deal of focus even post-Flashpoint. Waller, even considering the thin version, got a good deal of focus. Mr. Terrific? At least two series with him as the main character, and I believe he had a prominent Earth 2 role while that was wrapping up.

As for the others, I'd certainly like a return to prominence for Bronze Tiger, Vixen, Mr. Terrific, etc. They are great characters. But you have to have the correct writer, the correct story, and the correct timing for the character. Otherwise, you are likely to do the character and the publisher more harm than good. Even publishers as big as DC/Marvel can ill afford to botch a character like that. Of course, I present HiC as a cautionary tale. Bad timing, wrong story, very wrong character, not getting that readers are sick and tired of a bunch of gratuitous character deaths.

On a side note: The right story for HiC would have been a respectful and sensitive exploration of PTSD and loss. I've been formally diagnosed PTSD. It gets really bad sometimes, and it usually stays bad for a while. Folks who don't understand PTSD act like it is your fault. Either you are being week or you are failing to let go of the past. Third option, folks: PTSD. I seem to be coming out of a particularly bad season with it now. I spent about 6-7 weeks barely able to function enough to work.

[Midnighter]

outside of a couple of hallucinations by wally, when else has there been actual proof that he was a titan anymore? i heard about some slight winks at the audience when he interacted with raven, but nothing concrete.

Preview art for DC:Millennium

titans.jpg

[Wakeneuron]

Preview art for DC:Millennium

titans.jpg

Imo this doesn't mean much. It's just the artist's interpretation of her favorite Titans team. This is the same team she drew for Titans convergence.

It's impossible to squeeze in all of the Titans teams since the 60s and also include Superman's son and Damian into a 15 year timeline or maybe a 15 year minus 9 year timeline since Superman's son was born 9 years ago. This is exactly why Superheroes shouldn't have kids because some writer will eventually come along and age them up causing havok on the timeline.

[Anthony Shaw]

Given what happened in HiC, I'm kinda glad these characters are not being used.

John Stewart was not even meant to appear in the Cosmic Odyssey story. Yet, that story has dogged the character through retcons, and reboots. It is one of the few stories from the 1980's that still gets referred to.

I would just say let the characters stay in limbo until a creative team with a plan is ready to use them.

[king81992]

In what way would Michael Holt (who is roughly in the same age group) and Jakeem Thunder (who is unconnected to them) make Batman and his friends look old? I doubt that's the reason they were tossed. And the JSA should be on Earth-2 anyway where they can have a retired/dead Batman.

The kids are probably a bad idea in the long run.




They may just have better black characters to work with as leads.
Looking just at Marvel, the likes of Black Panther, Storm and Luke Cage just seem more appealing than what DC has to offer. That brings us to a larger "what came first, the chicken or the egg" scenario where we wonder if Marvel's black characters were always inherently better or if they just got more care and attention not afforded to DC's black characters, and they got it earlier. In which case, DC as a company has to make up for lost time, and that's difficult to do.

Even with Black Panther killing it at the box office, Marvel still chose the big name Silver Age guy that debuted in Lee/Kirby's Fantastic Four as their first black lead, not a lesser known character.



There is also House of Whispers.

Marvel is willing to push their black characters(and minority characters in general)despite the backlash of certain fans. DC only pays lip service when it comes to pushing their black characters.

[Iconic]

Marvel is willing to push their black characters(and minority characters in general)despite the backlash of certain fans. DC only pays lip service when it comes to pushing their black characters.

So true.

They had me thinking Cyborg was going to be a central character in DCeased. DC this far has stayed true to form. It'd be nice to see a black hero central to an event with this company. The leadership in this comic book division is so disappointing.

[iron chimp]

There is also House of Whispers.

Good one.

So that's Terrifics, Naomi, Michael Cray, American Carnage, House of Whispers, and DCeased (according to OP) in the last twelve months.

Hmmm...

[Godlike13]

Age of Heroes was more then just lip service, and Cyborg was super pushed since the New 52.

[Vampire Savior]

Good one.

So that's Terrifics, Naomi, Michael Cray, American Carnage, House of Whispers, and DCeased (according to OP) in the last twelve months.

Hmmm...

As I've brought out in other recent posts of mine, I always try to understand what certain groups are entertained by and why, and what they're looking for from their entertainment. One way to really go wrong is to think you understand what they want, and when they don't like what you produce, you blame them for it somehow, saying, "I gave you what you were asking for, you just didn't support it". What likely happened is you just didn't understand that group as well as you thought, or you weren't good at executing your ideas, and it can also be true that there just isn't a market for what you were producing.

It's not just a matter of putting black characters in places. That is just one of the steps. What also matters is consistency and what you do with those black characters. You also have to give the audience assurance that you're really behind the character and you aren't just going to discard them into obscurity after a short while.

It seems to me that there are people unsatisfied with many of the black characters at DC, and from what I have put together, the issue is essentially that the black characters don't have what the main white characters at DC have:

Consistent use. Is Michael Cray going to get consistent use and actually matter, or is he going to slink off into obscurity after a short try? If it's the latter, people won't bother supporting him.

Solo runs of a decent length. Some like Steel might have this, but it's REALLY rare.

Worlds built around them, which include consistent locations, supporting cast, and rogues galleries. Basically no Black character at DC has this in a worthwhile capacity.

Big roles in events. Superman is almost ALWAYS doing something. If you can make room for him time and again, you can probably do something for a black character. Though there will be some fans who will complain, because as I said in my previous post, many DC fans have expectations, and DC doesn't have a black character of the caliber of their major white ones, so it might seem forced to them, especially if it isn't done really well. For example, Cyborg's inclusion on the Justice League looks forced and unconvincing to a lot of fans, and a lot of them did not embrace him and still don't.

And of course the stuff has to be of good quality. None of this matters if the comics are garbage.

And some other stuff...

It's not enough to say, "Look, there's some black guy in a book here," and expect people looking for black characters to be exciting by that alone. That's a start, but it's not enough. If the black guy doesn't matter much in the book, or if he's somehow undermined by a white character, like John Stewart is to Hal Jordan, or if the book is garbage like the last attempt at Static, then it doesn't matter and you aren't going to make any worthwhile headway with that audience.

[iron chimp]

And of course the stuff has to be of good quality. None of this matters if the comics are garbage.

And some other stuff...

It's not enough to say, "Look, there's some black guy in a book here," and expect people looking for black characters to be exciting by that alone. That's a start, but it's not enough. If the black guy doesn't matter much in the book, or if he's somehow undermined by a white character, like John Stewart is to Hal Jordan, or if the book is garbage like the last attempt at Static, then it doesn't matter and you aren't going to make any worthwhile headway with that audience.

You are 100% right. If you can reduce the work of the creator of miles Morales, the writer of the authority, the writer of sandman, Geoff lemire, yang, Taylor, and hill to people writing "some black guy in a book" then DCs writers arent for you.