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  1. #16
    Extraordinary Member Cyke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    I agree that Michael is not a Mary Sue. She's nowhere near as bad as TNG season 1 Wesley. But she is still the weakest element of the show, which is a problem when she's also the main character. I think part of the problem is the actress is not as good at playing a character like this who is not supposed to show much emotion as Leonard Nimoy or Jeri Ryan were.
    I feel like that's a misinterpretation of the character. I agree that she's not written well but Burnham is not only supposed to show emotion, she's the one who teaches (and reminds) Vulcans that it's okay to have them. She also serves as a counterpoint or foil to the emotional extremes of Mirror Georgiou (hostility, brutality), Tilly (excitement, naivete), and Saru (duty, strictness) -- if they're at one end of the extreme, Burnham is either at a more reasonable end or at the other end of the extreme.

    My main problem is the writing. Burnham gets to emotional highs and lows but oftentimes the writing doesn't work to earn those emotions, so it seems like she's crying for no reason. On paper the progression makes sense but the pacing on screen is so off that those emotions seem more spontaneous rather than natural. For example, her sadness at a colleague's death would make way more sense if they actually devoted time to that connection with the colleague, rather than at the episode of the death itself.

  2. #17
    Ultimate Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyke View Post
    In the case of Discovery, the showrunners and head writers were first Bryan Fuller and then Alex Kurtzman. They're both men, and Kurtzman is married to a woman. Unless they've been hiding certain things about themselves, Michael Burnham can't be their wish-fullfilling Mary Sue, by definition.
    Yeah, that's what a Mary Sue actually is (I suppose you could make a self-inset character of a different gender, but that's another topic).

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyke View Post
    I've complaints about Michael Burnham's character, namely that the writers love to insert her as the problem solver even in plots that don't involve her (which is already rare), but she also goes through a lot of personal loss and those in authority are plenty skeptical of her. By contrast, a Mary Sue would have almost everything in her life going her way -- heck, a Mary Sue would be captain already, whereas Discovery (the show, not the ship) has gone through four captains already, all of whom treat Michael as a subordinate -- as they should.
    Sounds nothing like a Mary Sue and pretty much like the typical Star Trek character. I think that the way "Mary Sue" has come to be commonly used to mean "badly-written character, esp. badly written female character" hasn't been a good thing. There was a time that I would've defended it as a useful shorthand phrase, but it tends to trigger controversy and buries the real question of how to write good characters. Also, I think that the ostensible criteria for a so-called Mary Sue character often ignores that well-written characters can embody those traits. Batman is the king of the Mary Sues, yet he is a very compelling character.

    Secondly, I've noticed that it seems to be most often invoked to tear down female characters, which makes it feel like there's an ulterior motive. Not saying that badly-written female characters should be off-limits for analysis and criticism (heck, I think that Gwen Stacy in the Andrew Garfield Spider-Man movies is a very badly-written character that I'd call a Mary Sue if I used that term and I can explain why in a fair amount of detail), but the analysis doesn't always add up. For example, I hang out on a Star Wars forum and it became forbidden to call sequel trilogy character Rey a Mary Sue because of the flame wars it started. Thing was, while everyone is entitled to their opinion, I noticed that the "pro-Mary Sue" arguments ignored information spelled out in the movies and were easily debunked. Now, I am sure some of those people genuinely though she was a weak character and that's fine, but, with all the misogyny in the fanbase that's come to light in recent years, it's not hard to make connections.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  3. #18
    Chad Jar Jar Pinsir's Avatar
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    One of the major tenants of a Mary Sue is that the character is near universally liked, which Burnham in the story isn't.
    #InGunnITrust, #ZackSnyderistheBlueprint, #ReleasetheAyerCut

  4. #19
    Astonishing Member Godzilla2099's Avatar
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    Some Star Trek Series I recommend, others I will not. Personally, I can't recommend Discovery

    The special effects are awesome, but Captain Lorca was my favorite part of the show. Captain Lorca had the potential to be one of my favorite captain since Sisko. I liked his military edge and this guy had his flaws. Absolutely couldn't stand the stupid twist they did to him at the end of the series. It felt so forced and more aimed at political agenda over an actual Star Trek Story.

    People say Season 2 improved but I'm not giving it a chance. Other than Michelle Yeoh and the Kelpian, I had no interest in the rest of the cast. It feels like they're trying too hard here. And if this series didn't have the Star Trek title, it feels more like I'm watching Babylon 5.

    As for Michael B, although her character feels forced, she's not a Mary Sue. She at least has her flaws, however, I have no interest in Michael because I find her annoying.

  5. #20
    Ultimate Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    One of the major tenants of a Mary Sue is that the character is near universally liked, which Burnham in the story isn't.
    I think the idea was "liked without reason." Not a good metric, IMHO, but there it is.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  6. #21
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    One of the major tenants of a Mary Sue is that the character is near universally liked, which Burnham in the story isn't.
    She started a war the got god's know how many killed and was forgiven and her entire crew was willing to give up their lives to follower her into the unknown far future. She's not nearly universally liked?

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    I think the idea was "liked without reason." Not a good metric, IMHO, but there it is.
    Either way in the DCU most people think Batman is at least a jerk if not much worse which gets him off the hook for being a Gary Stu.

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