Squadron Supreme... Or Sinister?

[XPac]

You're Namor. The Squadron got involved because the Avengers failed to live up to their name. That failure has recently come back to haunt them (see: Stingray). Namor's a violent thug who gets a pass because he's Captain America's friend and has done good in the past. Strangely the same rule didn't apply when they had Sentry swoop down and arrest Dr Doom.



Nighthawk didn't stop fighting crime. The path was to stop the Myriad. They were not gunning for other heroes. The heroes were hypocritically gunning for them.



He's simply not interesting. He fills no role. A Batman analogue without the qualifications.

Namor was possessed by the Phoneix in AvX, so he gets a bit of a pass there. And in all fairness the Squadron is USUALLY mind controlled (or possession or something along those lines) when they do something which requires the Avengers to stop them too. But it's a rare case where the Squadron wasn't actually mind controlled and were just asking the way they were just because. No free pass there... hence them getting chased down by SHIELD and the Avengers.

Even the Squadron themselves realize that what they did was wrong in the end. They screwed up, they realized they screwed up, and they tried fixing it... hence afterwards SHIELD and the Avengers let the Squadron be. They weren't villains... they were just being stupid, and everyone in the end let it slide. It just took the Squadron a little while to get there, that's all.

As far as the path being to stop the Myriad... if they had actually done anything to stop the Myriad then we'd be having a very different conversation right now. Problem being that's not really the case. Again, apart from Weird World they did nothing but fight other heroes. They're even picking fights with heroes who weren't actively chasing them, like Blue Marvel. They attacked the lab he was working with for no aparent reason, got their butts kicked, and that was that. They accomplished little to nothing, realized that, and went their seperates ways. Unless the Myriad was operating on the streets of Chicago, I'd say the Myriad fiasco just illustrates how relatively big a flop this team ended up being. If stoppng the Myriad was their path, then how much credit do you realistically expect any reader to give them based on that?

[Thor-Ul]

He's simply not interesting. He fills no role. A Batman analogue without the qualifications.

Yes, he fills that role, but that doesn't mean he can't be interesting as a character. Sometimes only requires a good writer to explore unexpected alternatives to the development and stories of the characters. And sometimes, expies can have narrative advantages than the originals doesn't have.

Also,compare the Nighthawk from the regular Marvel U. with the Nighthawk from the Supreme Power series using as base their own series isn't equivalent. The Nighthawk from Supreme Power series was originally wrote with other tone, trying to be more "adult" and that included being with few superpowered people and with more real impact ad consecuences of the existence of superpowered beings. That implied a more down to earth Nighthawk, not totally be able to deal with superbeings. The relevant factor was he was a racist Batman analog.

That said, it is ovbious than transported to the regular MU, this character would be upgraded to compete with his similars. Also, he was a main character in the series, there he would be the winner. It doesn't matter if the previous Nighthawk would had goes against Hulk, he would lose anyway becausehe was in the book where the other Nighthawk was the hero. But that kind of inconsistency can be found in every book.

[Michael Watkins]

Namor was possessed by the Phoneix in AvX, so he gets a bit of a pass there. And in all fairness the Squadron is USUALLY mind controlled (or possession or something along those lines) when they do something which requires the Avengers to stop them too. But it's a rare case where the Squadron wasn't actually mind controlled and were just asking the way they were just because. No free pass there... hence them getting chased down by SHIELD and the Avengers.

Even the Squadron themselves realize that what they did was wrong in the end. They screwed up, they realized they screwed up, and they tried fixing it... hence afterwards SHIELD and the Avengers let the Squadron be. They weren't villains... they were just being stupid, and everyone in the end let it slide. It just took the Squadron a little while to get there, that's all.

As far as the path being to stop the Myriad... if they had actually done anything to stop the Myriad then we'd be having a very different conversation right now. Problem being that's not really the case. Again, apart from Weird World they did nothing but fight other heroes. They're even picking fights with heroes who weren't actively chasing them, like Blue Marvel. They attacked the lab he was working with for no aparent reason, got their butts kicked, and that was that. They accomplished little to nothing, realized that, and went their seperates ways. Unless the Myriad was operating on the streets of Chicago, I'd say the Myriad fiasco just illustrates how relatively big a flop this team ended up being. If stoppng the Myriad was their path, then how much credit do you realistically expect any reader to give them based on that?

Did you actually read the series? Zarda was leading the Myriad. They went after Zarda. She wanted Namor as a partner. The only mistake was not knowing something only an inhuman prophet knew. You act like they got a case of the guilts. Nighthawk sure didn't. Way I see it, he was right throughout. Everyone else was written out of character; possibly as a reaction to the series needing to end or the company crossover.

Anyways, Dwayne Taylor would also be a superior Nighthawk. He's more like the squadron version than Kyle. And you already admitted that the Squadron version was more successful.

[XPac]

Did you actually read the series? Zarda was leading the Myriad. They went after Zarda. She wanted Namor as a partner. The only mistake was not knowing something only an inhuman prophet knew. You act like they got a case of the guilts. Nighthawk sure didn't. Way I see it, he was right throughout. Everyone else was written out of character; possibly as a reaction to the series needing to end or the company crossover.

Anyways, Dwayne Taylor would also be a superior Nighthawk. He's more like the squadron version than Kyle. And you already admitted that the Squadron version was more successful.

Nighthawl abandoned the groups agenda and became a street level heroe again. I'm not sure I'd say he was feeling guilty of anything... but I do think it's more than fair to say this version of the Squadron and NH's tenure as leader as a flop.

As for Dwayne... I guess he could be a Nighthawk. If we're just imagining random heroes who could do a better job than any of the existing Nighthawks there's probably quite a few. None of the Nighthawks are really A list heroes. Not that Dwayne is either.

[Michael Watkins]

Nighthawl abandoned the groups agenda and became a street level heroe again. I'm not sure I'd say he was feeling guilty of anything... but I do think it's more than fair to say this version of the Squadron and NH's tenure as leader as a flop.

as a reminder, we are comparing Raymond Kane and Kyle Richmond. has Kyle done better? could he have held the Squadron together? or would Spectrum have quit on him the moment he didn't want to kill Namor? if you really want to compare flops, i'm sure that i could dust off a few of Kyle's. how many teams did he go through in that civil war era Defenders book? would the original team have even considered him for leadership? it all goes back to the origin of the Nighthawk character. he's supposed to be like Batman; a loner and strategist. Ray fit that description. his strategies were sound. he just wasn't accessible on an emotional level. so he succeeded at being a Batman analogue. Kyle, on the other hand, is very accessible. he's just a fop. and he sucks at strategizing. i don't have to prove how great Ray is. because you've yet to give a good reason for Kyle to be Nighthawk. he, himself, gave the identity up.

As for Dwayne... I guess he could be a Nighthawk. If we're just imagining random heroes who could do a better job than any of the existing Nighthawks there's probably quite a few. None of the Nighthawks are really A list heroes. Not that Dwayne is either.

it's not random. he was clearly made in the mold of Batman (wealthy, dead parents, businessman, an alfred, a ras al ghul, a boy ward, martial arts mastery, no powers, lonerish); like Nighthawk.

[XPac]

as a reminder, we are comparing Raymond Kane and Kyle Richmond. has Kyle done better? could he have held the Squadron together? or would Spectrum have quit on him the moment he didn't want to kill Namor? if you really want to compare flops, i'm sure that i could dust off a few of Kyle's. how many teams did he go through in that civil war era Defenders book? would the original team have even considered him for leadership? it all goes back to the origin of the Nighthawk character. he's supposed to be like Batman; a loner and strategist. Ray fit that description. his strategies were sound. he just wasn't accessible on an emotional level. so he succeeded at being a Batman analogue. Kyle, on the other hand, is very accessible. he's just a fop. and he sucks at strategizing. i don't have to prove how great Ray is. because you've yet to give a good reason for Kyle to be Nighthawk. he, himself, gave the identity up.



it's not random. he was clearly made in the mold of Batman (wealthy, dead parents, businessman, an alfred, a ras al ghul, a boy ward, martial arts mastery, no powers, lonerish); like Nighthawk.

You can certainly argue 616s Nighthawks tenure in the Defenders was overall better than JMS Nighthawks tenure in the Squadron. So overall I'd argue the 616 Kyle accomplished more. JMS Nighthawk simply didn't do a whole lot. After he abanded the Squadrons mission he did some street level stuff for a short while before dying. Overall his run in the 616 was somewhat underwhelming. Not that 616 Nighthawk was an A lister or anything... but his time on the Defenders IMO at least more than surpasses what JMS Nighthawk accomplished. We'll have to disagree on the matter I guess.

Do I think 616 Kyle could have held the Squadron together? Hard to say. In the least I don't think it would have the same problems that the JMS version did. They wouldn't have destroyed Atlantis, so they wouldn't be hunted by the Avengers and SHIELD. It's entirely possible they would still break up for different reasons, but I don't think most would be on the same page as far as what they were doing.

And honestly I think it would be pretty random for Dwayne to become Nighthawk. Yeah, I guess he could, but why? Tilda I sort of get, since she worked with Nighthawk and wants to carry on his mantle (or at least she did for 5 seconds... not sure if she's even bothering to at this point). There's still like 3-4 Nighthawks in the 616 right now, so we probably don't need more.

[Michael Watkins]

You can certainly argue 616s Nighthawks tenure in the Defenders was overall better than JMS Nighthawks tenure in the Squadron. So overall I'd argue the 616 Kyle accomplished more. JMS Nighthawk simply didn't do a whole lot. After he abanded the Squadrons mission he did some street level stuff for a short while before dying. Overall his run in the 616 was somewhat underwhelming. Not that 616 Nighthawk was an A lister or anything... but his time on the Defenders IMO at least more than surpasses what JMS Nighthawk accomplished. We'll have to disagree on the matter I guess.

i guess because you're not comparing runs of similar length. i'd say that Kyle had the advantage of being in a book that wasn't in a rush to be cancelled and with few company crossovers to get in the way. since you're not going into specifics, i can't really criticize Kyle's personal contribution to their wins. mostly he just runs around and punches people though, right? he wasn't their battle strategist. the only defenders run that involved him had him as basically a planeteer; summoning the actual Defenders.

Do I think 616 Kyle could have held the Squadron together? Hard to say.

then i'll say it. he wouldn't even be able to assemble them. they wouldn't have respected him. Blur was pretty stupid. he might have at least heard Kyle out. Zarda would broken his neck and drained his life essence.

And honestly I think it would be pretty random for Dwayne to become Nighthawk. Yeah, I guess he could, but why? Tilda I sort of get, since she worked with Nighthawk and wants to carry on his mantle (or at least she did for 5 seconds... not sure if she's even bothering to at this point). There's still like 3-4 Nighthawks in the 616 right now, so we probably don't need more.

i think it was pretty random for Tilda to be working for Nighthawk; in Chicago of all places. last we saw him, Dwayne had returned to a changed world looking for a new mission. that's really all the set up you'd need. it's not like there's not another Night Thrasher.

[XPac]

i guess because you're not comparing runs of similar length. i'd say that Kyle had the advantage of being in a book that wasn't in a rush to be cancelled and with few company crossovers to get in the way. since you're not going into specifics, i can't really criticize Kyle's personal contribution to their wins. mostly he just runs around and punches people though, right? he wasn't their battle strategist. the only defenders run that involved him had him as basically a planeteer; summoning the actual Defenders.



then i'll say it. he wouldn't even be able to assemble them. they wouldn't have respected him. Blur was pretty stupid. he might have at least heard Kyle out. Zarda would broken his neck and drained his life essence.



i think it was pretty random for Tilda to be working for Nighthawk; in Chicago of all places. last we saw him, Dwayne had returned to a changed world looking for a new mission. that's really all the set up you'd need. it's not like there's not another Night Thrasher.

Sure, because 616 Kyle had a much longer run he did more. But honestly even in the same amount of issues you can make an arguement that 616 Kyle accomplished more. I don't deny that JMS Kyles run got short because the book got cancelled... but again, that's still what we have to compare them to despite the circumstances.

And sure, maybe Kyle would not have assembled this team. Given he didn't know any of them and had no particular reason to want to work with any of them yeah... under 616 Kyle this Squadron team might not have existed. They all had a common situation of being stranded in a foreign world which binded them together. 616 Kyle obviously didn't have that. And if they as a group decided to destroy Atlantis 616 Kyle would certainly have no part of that, and would probably work with the Avengers to stop the Squadron. Course, as we see in the book the Squadron comes around more to Kyle 616 way of thinking than the JMS version... but it would take awhile for them to get to that point.

As for Dwayne... sure he could be an okay Nighthawk. But again, we've got like 3-4 at the moment. We don't really need another.

[Michael Watkins]

Sure, because 616 Kyle had a much longer run he did more. But honestly even in the same amount of issues you can make an arguement that 616 Kyle accomplished more. I don't deny that JMS Kyles run got short because the book got cancelled... but again, that's still what we have to compare them to despite the circumstances.

you could make that argument. but i wouldn't agree with it. i don't see any initiative for Kyle. he's not setting the agenda for the Defenders. he was along for the ride. the comparison should be between Kyle's time as a leader and Ray's.

And sure, maybe Kyle would not have assembled this team. Given he didn't know any of them and had no particular reason to want to work with any of them yeah... under 616 Kyle this Squadron team might not have existed. They all had a common situation of being stranded in a foreign world which binded them together. 616 Kyle obviously didn't have that. And if they as a group decided to destroy Atlantis 616 Kyle would certainly have no part of that, and would probably work with the Avengers to stop the Squadron. Course, as we see in the book the Squadron comes around more to Kyle 616 way of thinking than the JMS version... but it would take awhile for them to get to that point.

it occurred to me that the character you keep referring to as JMS Nighthawk could not be JMS Nighthawk due to continuity. Namor and co showed up to a squadron universe to kill everyone. problem being that, by that point, there wasn't a Squadron left to fight. everyone had lost their powers.

As for Dwayne... sure he could be an okay Nighthawk. But again, we've got like 3-4 at the moment. We don't really need another.

so then you agree that Kyle shouldn't return as Nighthawk (because he isn't currently Nighthawk). great.

[XPac]

you could make that argument. but i wouldn't agree with it. i don't see any initiative for Kyle. he's not setting the agenda for the Defenders. he was along for the ride. the comparison should be between Kyle's time as a leader and Ray's.



it occurred to me that the character you keep referring to as JMS Nighthawk could not be JMS Nighthawk due to continuity. Namor and co showed up to a squadron universe to kill everyone. problem being that, by that point, there wasn't a Squadron left to fight. everyone had lost their powers.



so then you agree that Kyle shouldn't return as Nighthawk (because he isn't currently Nighthawk). great.

It's been awhile since I read Squadron, but I believe the first issue idenfitied him as the JMS version. I think there was that one page where they idenfied the universe each one came from (though the Power Princess one at least was a lie).

As far as 616 Kyle returning as Nighthawk... I believe he already did in Fear Itself. He was one of the 3-4 NH's which are presently existing. Considering we just got a new NH in Avengers, I think the field is crowded enough.

[Michael Watkins]

It's been awhile since I read Squadron, but I believe the first issue idenfitied him as the JMS version. I think there was that one page where they idenfied the universe each one came from (though the Power Princess one at least was a lie).

As far as 616 Kyle returning as Nighthawk... I believe he already did in Fear Itself. He was one of the 3-4 NH's which are presently existing. Considering we just got a new NH in Avengers, I think the field is crowded enough.

right. there should be only one. i'm all for Kyle dying or being brutally injured. the connection to Mephisto will take care of the newest one. Tilda doesn't need the identity. Nightshade is a perfectly good name for a morally dubious individual who specializes in poisons. her needing to take up the mantle does point to Ray being a lot more influential than you're giving him credit for, though. Kyle had to beg Joaquin to don the costume. strangely enough, he claimed that Joaquin stole it from him in the Fear Itself series. so he's a flip flopper to boot.

[XPac]

right. there should be only one. i'm all for Kyle dying or being brutally injured. the connection to Mephisto will take care of the newest one. Tilda doesn't need the identity. Nightshade is a perfectly good name for a morally dubious individual who specializes in poisons. her needing to take up the mantle does point to Ray being a lot more influential than you're giving him credit for, though. Kyle had to beg Joaquin to don the costume. strangely enough, he claimed that Joaquin stole it from him in the Fear Itself series. so he's a flip flopper to boot.

JMS Nighthawk in the least was very influential to Tilda... I'll give him that much. He managed to influence her to become his legacy character for a second there. I'm not sure she's exactly doing a whole lot to make his memory proud but hey... it's the thought that counts I guess. That said, I hope someone does something with Tilda as Nighthawk just so the death of the JMS version wasn't a total waste.

But if we needed to narrow the list I'd agree that neither Tilda or Dwayne need to go around calling themselves Nighthawk since they both already have established identities. They're fine as Night Shade and Night Thrasher. I was perfectly fine with Joaquin in the 2 seconds we've seen him, so if someone hypothetically wanted to push him as Nighthawk again that would be fine. If he were left in limbo, that would be fine too. New guy remains to be seen.

[Michael Watkins]

JMS Nighthawk in the least was very influential to Tilda... I'll give him that much. He managed to influence her to become his legacy character for a second there. I'm not sure she's exactly doing a whole lot to make his memory proud but hey... it's the thought that counts I guess. That said, I hope someone does something with Tilda as Nighthawk just so the death of the JMS version wasn't a total waste.

But if we needed to narrow the list I'd agree that neither Tilda or Dwayne need to go around calling themselves Nighthawk since they both already have established identities. They're fine as Night Shade and Night Thrasher. I was perfectly fine with Joaquin in the 2 seconds we've seen him, so if someone hypothetically wanted to push him as Nighthawk again that would be fine. If he were left in limbo, that would be fine too. New guy remains to be seen.

new guy is visually indistinguishable from Joaquin. but he has what i consider to be the requisite traits of a Batman analogue. no magic enhanced strength or ability to see evil before it happens. he'd be my favorite to retain the identity if not for the Mephisto stuff.

[CentralPower]

They attacked the lab he was working with for no aparent reason, got their butts kicked, and that was that. They accomplished little to nothing, realized that, and went their seperates ways. Unless the Myriad was operating on the streets of Chicago, I'd say the Myriad fiasco just illustrates how relatively big a flop this team ended up being. If stoppng the Myriad was their path, then how much credit do you realistically expect any reader to give them based on that?

There was a throwaway line in the last issue about SHIELD shutting down the alien conspiracy. I attributed that to the series being cancelled early. But, on page, it was not a win for the Squadron.

Tilda I sort of get, since she worked with Nighthawk and wants to carry on his mantle (or at least she did for 5 seconds... not sure if she's even bothering to at this point).

I doubt Marvel even remembers the female Nighthawk. Honestly, I am not sure they care about the Robinson series from 2016.

It's been awhile since I read Squadron, but I believe the first issue idenfitied him as the JMS version. I think there was that one page where they idenfied the universe each one came from (though the Power Princess one at least was a lie).

As far as 616 Kyle returning as Nighthawk... I believe he already did in Fear Itself. He was one of the 3-4 NH's which are presently existing. Considering we just got a new NH in Avengers, I think the field is crowded enough.

The JMS (Supreme Power) Nighthawk was shown inconsistently.

During "Time Runs Out" (the lead in to "Secret Wars"), the "Supreme Power" Nighthawk (and the rest of the team) were shown dead at the feet of Namor's Cabal. (Even if they were not dead at that point, they would have been killed when their planet was destroyed.)

During the "Squadron Sinisters" tie-in, the "Supreme Power" team was shown being killed (yet again) by the titular Squadron Sinister. In that case, Nighthawk was the only survivor. (And, of course, Battleworld got blown up real good at the end of "Secret Wars".)

The Nighthawk shown in the post-"Secret Wars" series was none the worse for dying at least once, and did not even seem to remember anything beyond vaguely recalling his world being destroyed. ("Secret Wars" being so ambiguated does little to help clarify this.)

(The fact that we are trying to figure out which redundant variant of an obscure character we are talking about highlights one of the bigger problems with the Squadron over-all. They are both obscure and baggage-laden.)

new guy is visually indistinguishable from Joaquin. but he has what i consider to be the requisite traits of a Batman analogue. no magic enhanced strength or ability to see evil before it happens. he'd be my favorite to retain the identity if not for the Mephisto stuff.

The new Nighthawk's monologue (in a recent issue of the Aaron "Avengers" run) makes me think that the Mephisto influence is mind-control. And, given how much page space that Nighthawk has recieved (relative to the others), I suspect that he will survive and get a push (likely as a less controversial variant of the Raymond Kane variant of the character).