Squadron Supreme... Or Sinister?

[XPac]

he literally looked at Luke Cage's avengers team (half of which were street level) and said that they looked like Defenders. you can be a street level hero and adventure with characters who are way out of your league i.e. Ant-Man hung with the Fantastic Four and Guardians of the Galaxy.



do they return his calls? i remember him having to hire Paladin, Junta, and Atlas during the Civil War era. is Hellcat not street level?

Fair point. Let's say you're not street level if you're on the Defenders team Kyle was on. Which again was like 99% of his publication appearances. Point being when you're having adventures with Dr. Strange, Silver Surfer, and Hulk odds are pretty good you're not punching out street thugs and muggers.

[Michael Watkins]

Fair point. Let's say you're not street level if you're on the Defenders team Kyle was on. Which again was like 99% of his publication appearances. Point being when you're having adventures with Dr. Strange, Silver Surfer, and Hulk odds are pretty good you're not punching out street thugs and muggers.

Point being that MAX Nighthawk took down Hyperion and a militia in Darfur by himself. He also outfought the Nighthawk skrull.

[XPac]

Point being that MAX Nighthawk took down Hyperion and a militia in Darfur by himself. He also outfought the Nighthawk skrull.

Yeah, he outfight a Nighthawk Skrull... but only got his butt handed to him by a Squadron Sinister Nighthawk in Secret Wars. And by his own he had to give it his all to go toe to toe with an old Steve Rogers. So I won't say the JMS Kyle is necessarily one of the more dangerous Nighthawks in a straight fight.

I think in general the scale of things for the JMS Squadron is just a lot lower. To them a fight against Redstone is a big deal. To a hero in the 616 marvel universe, fighting a super strong villain probably happens every Tuesday afternoon. An active 616 hero will deal with more in a year than someone in the JMS universe might deal with in a lifetime. That's not necessarily a knock against them... but in terms of feats and experience, it makes a difference.

Gruenwald Hyperion sort of illustrated that when he fought Gladiator back in the day. He almost never had to face anyone at his level, so Gladiator semi-regularly fights guys like Thor, the Surfer, THanos, etc. And that was a big difference maker in their fight.

In hindsight maybe it isn't surprising they frankly sucked when they first arrived. Things in the 616 operate as a whole other level.

[Michael Watkins]

Yeah, he outfight a Nighthawk Skrull... but only got his butt handed to him by a Squadron Sinister Nighthawk in Secret Wars. And by his own he had to give it his all to go toe to toe with an old Steve Rogers. So I won't say the JMS Kyle is necessarily one of the more dangerous Nighthawks in a straight fight.

I think in general the scale of things for the JMS Squadron is just a lot lower. To them a fight against Redstone is a big deal. To a hero in the 616 marvel universe, fighting a super strong villain probably happens every Tuesday afternoon. An active 616 hero will deal with more in a year than someone in the JMS universe might deal with in a lifetime. That's not necessarily a knock against them... but in terms of feats and experience, it makes a difference.

Gruenwald Hyperion sort of illustrated that when he fought Gladiator back in the day. He almost never had to face anyone at his level, so Gladiator semi-regularly fights guys like Thor, the Surfer, THanos, etc. And that was a big difference maker in their fight.

In hindsight maybe it isn't surprising they frankly sucked when they first arrived. Things in the 616 operate as a whole other level.

Tell it to Namor. And you seriously underestimate old Steve Rogers (see fight with Iron Man). Max Nighthawk doesn't need Kyle's enhancement. He actually has some skill. Kyle wasn't even important enough to appear during secret wars. So we'll never know how badly he'd lose to his Squadron Sinister counterpart.

[XPac]

Tell it to Namor. And you seriously underestimate old Steve Rogers (see fight with Iron Man). Max Nighthawk doesn't need Kyle's enhancement. He actually has some skill. Kyle wasn't even important enough to appear during secret wars. So we'll never know how badly he'd lose to his Squadron Sinister counterpart.

I'd have an easier time buying that he didn't need enhancements if he wasn't killed off by a bunch of goons with guns. Again, I hate to knock the guy cause I like him, but his performance in the 616 was overall pretty underwhelming. I'll give him props for setting up shop when he got there, but his actual effectiveness as a hero, a leader, and even as a fighter is sort of sub par. IMO at least. Maybe you were more impressed by how he was used than I was.

[Michael Watkins]

I'd have an easier time buying that he didn't need enhancements if he wasn't killed off by a bunch of goons with guns. Again, I hate to knock the guy cause I like him, but his performance in the 616 was overall pretty underwhelming. I'll give him props for setting up shop when he got there, but his actual effectiveness as a hero, a leader, and even as a fighter is sort of sub par. IMO at least. Maybe you were more impressed by how he was used than I was.

Riight. Sure had nothing to do with someone's pet character needing Raymond Kane to be out of way so she could take up the mantle. It was a miscalculation on the writer's part.

[XPac]

Riight. Sure had nothing to do with someone's pet character needing Raymond Kane to be out of way so she could take up the mantle. It was a miscalculation on the writer's part.

I agree it was all kinds of messed up, and I complained about that earlier too. If they had no plans for Tilda whatsoever post Secret Empire, killing of JMS Nighthawk was a huge waste.

But ultimately as far as judging him I can only go by what we saw on panel. Again, potential and a dollar won't buy you a cup of coffee. And IMO at least, he overall had a very disappointing run in the 616. He was more impressive in his native universe, but that was mostly operating on a magnitude lower than even second tier 616 marvel characters tend to function.

[Digifiend]

They probably did have plans, but the book (Occupy Avengers) got cancelled and for some reason she and Wheels didn't get used in No Surrender.

[XPac]

They probably did have plans, but the book (Occupy Avengers) got cancelled and for some reason she and Wheels didn't get used in No Surrender.

Well, hopefully Tilda does show up somewhere. At least that won't make JMS Nighthawks death a complete waste.

Super unlikely, but I think it would be cool if she showed up in Aarons Avengers. This New Squadron should be getting some of the attention from the other Squadron people (and their associates like Tilda).

[BlackClaw]

Wouldn’t it be hilarious if Marvel made a squadron supreme movie and it became critically and financially more successful than the actual justice league movie?

[Michael Watkins]

I agree it was all kinds of messed up, and I complained about that earlier too. If they had no plans for Tilda whatsoever post Secret Empire, killing of JMS Nighthawk was a huge waste.

But ultimately as far as judging him I can only go by what we saw on panel. Again, potential and a dollar won't buy you a cup of coffee. And IMO at least, he overall had a very disappointing run in the 616. He was more impressive in his native universe, but that was mostly operating on a magnitude lower than even second tier 616 marvel characters tend to function.

All that is relevant is his record vs Kyle (who you avoid mentioning). Ray did more with less in a shorter period of time. We only saw his altercations with teams of native superhumans. They did not take him out. He's a better strategist than Kyle. He's a better businessman. He's a better fighter. He's a better leader. Strip away the teams and this still holds true. Kyle isn't able to go solo. He wouldn't have uncovered the alien threat. He wouldn't have found a way to outmatch Hyperion. I would rank him below Joaquin.

[XPac]

All that is relevant is his record vs Kyle (who you avoid mentioning). Ray did more with less in a shorter period of time. We only saw his altercations with teams of native superhumans. They did not take him out. He's a better strategist than Kyle. He's a better businessman. He's a better fighter. He's a better leader. Strip away the teams and this still holds true. Kyle isn't able to go solo. He wouldn't have uncovered the alien threat. He wouldn't have found a way to outmatch Hyperion. I would rank him below Joaquin.

Again, I disagree. Kyle in the Defenders probably saved the earth a dozen times a year. That team did very well and did a lot of good for a long period of time. I obviously don't give all the credit to Kyle, anymore than I fault the entire mess with the Squadron to JMS Kyle, but ultimately they accomplished very very little. And they acknowledge that. It was no secret.

Was he a better business man? Arguable point. Was he a better leader and strategist? I would STRONGLY argue that. His leadership again let to them basically spending their entire run fighting other heroes before the rest of his team essentially realized they didn't agree with him and abandoned him and the team. His term as a leader was an absolute bust. Was he a better fighter? Again, again debatable... he is able to hold his own against old man Steve while other Nighthawks are able to do it against a Steve at his physical prime. Other Nighthawks have better physical stats, but they are also fighting a physically superior Captain America so it'd questionable.

[Michael Watkins]

Again, I disagree. Kyle in the Defenders probably saved the earth a dozen times a year. That team did very well and did a lot of good for a long period of time. I obviously don't give all the credit to Kyle, anymore than I fault the entire mess with the Squadron to JMS Kyle, but ultimately they accomplished very very little. And they acknowledge that. It was no secret.

Was he a better business man? Arguable point. Was he a better leader and strategist? I would STRONGLY argue that. His leadership again let to them basically spending their entire run fighting other heroes before the rest of his team essentially realized they didn't agree with him and abandoned him and the team. His term as a leader was an absolute bust. Was he a better fighter? Again, again debatable... he is able to hold his own against old man Steve while other Nighthawks are able to do it against a Steve at his physical prime. Other Nighthawks have better physical stats, but they are also fighting a physically superior Captain America so it'd questionable.

You should really disregard the last squadron book. The narrative was inconsistent. Nighthawk agreed to lead an attack on Atlantis. It was a symbolic gesture to solidify them as a team. But Spectrum was the one out for blood. Nighthawk just wanted to steer them against threats that the native heroes ignored. And you are ignoring that there were segments of the population grateful for what they had done. I call out the inconsistency because the avengers had zero reason to come after them. Look at AvX and the recent altercation with Namor. Then look at the altercation with the Tbolts. Why were the teams not on the same side? Who was the "bad guy?" Didn't 3 of them return to Zemo? The writer could not decide if the squadron were heroes or just characters he wanted to see mix it up with characters he liked (enter the suddenly team beater level Hammond). The individual squadron members had no reason to turn on Nighthawk. He only provided the plan on how to go after Namor. But suddenly it is important for Hyperion and Spectrum to seem less homicidal. Logically they should have aided Nighthawk face the Myriad. That was a clear-cut threat to the world. They were not fighting good guys.

But anyways you haven't given any evidence of Kyle being worth much of anything without the Defenders being forced to work with him. He's the Nighthawk that is least like Batman. That makes him a poor fit in the Squadron.

[XPac]

You should really disregard the last squadron book. The narrative was inconsistent. Nighthawk agreed to lead an attack on Atlantis. It was a symbolic gesture to solidify them as a team. But Spectrum was the one out for blood. Nighthawk just wanted to steer them against threats that the native heroes ignored. And you are ignoring that there were segments of the population grateful for what they had done. I call out the inconsistency because the avengers had zero reason to come after them. Look at AvX and the recent altercation with Namor. Then look at the altercation with the Tbolts. Why were the teams not on the same side? Who was the "bad guy?" Didn't 3 of them return to Zemo? The writer could not decide if the squadron were heroes or just characters he wanted to see mix it up with characters he liked (enter the suddenly team beater level Hammond). The individual squadron members had no reason to turn on Nighthawk. He only provided the plan on how to go after Namor. But suddenly it is important for Hyperion and Spectrum to seem less homicidal. Logically they should have aided Nighthawk face the Myriad. That was a clear-cut threat to the world. They were not fighting good guys.

But anyways you haven't given any evidence of Kyle being worth much of anything without the Defenders being forced to work with him. He's the Nighthawk that is least like Batman. That makes him a poor fit in the Squadron.

Anytime you have someone decide to toss a populated city around, you're likely going to have super heroes hunting you down UNLESS there's mind control or possession or whatever involved. And pretty much ALL the Squadron realized what they did was wrong in the end, which shouldn't be THAT shocking as this sort of thing isn't what heroes normally do. They were on a path none of them wanted or agreed with, and which essentially accomplished nothing... which is why they all in the end abandoned it. Nighthawk included.

What you wanted them to be is what they wanted to be... unfortunately they fell short of that. Which in hindsight isn't that surprising since Squadron Supremes in general are often ways for marvel to tell stories of what happens when a super hero team goes wrong. I'm not sure they were ever designed to actually be a GOOD super hero team.

BUt I do agree that Kyle is the least like Batman, and a poor fit for the Squadron. He stopped being a Batman analogue once he joined the Defenders and essentially became his own character. It's frankly a part of what gives him the most longevity of any Squadron character. Once he stopped being a Batman analogue, writers stopped using him to tell "what if the Justice Leagued f'd up for the millionth time" stories and simply used him as a regular marvel character.

[Michael Watkins]

Anytime you have someone decide to toss a populated city around, you're likely going to have super heroes hunting you down UNLESS

You're Namor. The Squadron got involved because the Avengers failed to live up to their name. That failure has recently come back to haunt them (see: Stingray). Namor's a violent thug who gets a pass because he's Captain America's friend and has done good in the past. Strangely the same rule didn't apply when they had Sentry swoop down and arrest Dr Doom.

there's mind control or possession or whatever involved. And pretty much ALL the Squadron realized what they did was wrong in the end, which shouldn't be THAT shocking as this sort of thing isn't what heroes normally do. They were on a path none of them wanted or agreed with, and which essentially accomplished nothing... which is why they all in the end abandoned it. Nighthawk included.

Nighthawk didn't stop fighting crime. The path was to stop the Myriad. They were not gunning for other heroes. The heroes were hypocritically gunning for them.

BUt I do agree that Kyle is the least like Batman, and a poor fit for the Squadron. He stopped being a Batman analogue once he joined the Defenders and essentially became his own character. It's frankly a part of what gives him the most longevity of any Squadron character. Once he stopped being a Batman analogue, writers stopped using him to tell "what if the Justice Leagued f'd up for the millionth time" stories and simply used him as a regular marvel character.

He's simply not interesting. He fills no role. A Batman analogue without the qualifications.