Squadron Supreme... Or Sinister?

[Michael Watkins]

Unfortunately, because it's a pastiche, I don't think Marvel will ever really be able to deliver on a Squadron Supreme as a premier team. It will always have a fatal flaw and go through multiple versions and iterations over time. I advise not getting too attached to any version of the SS. The Squadron Sinister might have a better go of it. Or if Marvel ever decided to go there, a Legion of Doom pastiche might also work better for the MU.

If the choice were mine, though, I'd love to see a version of the Squadron Supreme that used original Marvel characters in the role of the otherwise pastiche characters, like so:

Superman - The Forgotten One
Batman - Black Panther
Wonder Woman - America Chavez
Flash - Quicksilver
Green Lantern - Captain Universe, or whomever happens to have the Quantum Bands
Martian Manhunter - The Impossible Man
Cyborg - Deathlok
Hawkgirl - The New Valkyrie
Aquaman - Namorita

no offense. but you seem to be trying to make them (random characters) fit the mold of the JLA. and that hasn't been any more successful than the multiple iterations of the Squadron. with brand new characters, you at least don't have to fuss with their individual continuities. do you really think that the Forgotten One is more marketable than Hyperion?

[Michael Watkins]

You know an easy solution?, combine Secret Wars with Infinity Warps. Squadron Supreme's reality is destroyed and arrive Earth-616; and to make them stable, they are merged with other people who can suit them. Examples:

+ Golden Archer with Hawkeye.
+ Lady Lark with Mockingbird.
+ Blue Eague with Falcon as Captain America.
+ Moonglow with Scarlet Witch.
+ Amphibian with Namor.

that just gives you a diluted/much weaker product, imo. think about it from the perspective of someone who has been a lifelong Namor fan but has zero interest in Amphibian.

[Michael Watkins]

an alternative take (since the consensus is that a 616 Squadron won't work). just start incorporating them into the 616 as a individual characters; powersets and names but w/o any thought of making them into a team. Black Archer, who didn't really have much of a history to begin with, could turn up as an addition to Hawkeye's Rogues Gallery. Redstone could spring up on some reservation and get into conflict with Captain America or be a younger powered individual being mentored by American Eagle. Hyperion could be some science experiment A.I.M intends to weaponize that Thor has to fight. Blur could be a newcomer to New York who tries to steal some of Spider-man's thunder. they are perfectly good character designs that are going to waste. if DC can make use of the Watchmen characters, Marvel should theoretically be creative enough to handle the Squadron and New Universe characters.

[JudicatorPrime]

no offense. but you seem to be trying to make them (random characters) fit the mold of the JLA. and that hasn't been any more successful than the multiple iterations of the Squadron. with brand new characters, you at least don't have to fuss with their individual continuities. do you really think that the Forgotten One is more marketable than Hyperion?

No worries, just an open and friendly discussion and no offense taken. On paper the characters do appear random, but that's the writer's job -- to show why they've come together in a convincing manner. Most teams start out that way, with myriad, disparate, unrelated parts that somehow find common cause and band together to achieve mutual goals. The only teams that don't follow that formula are typically family or tribal based units.

As for success, I wasn't forming the team in order to push product. If every wish were limited by market constraints, we'd all have to stop dreaming.

For what it's worth, yes, I think under the proper creative team the Forgotten One could see a marked increase in his popularity. Sure, Hyperion is very popular now, but that was not always the case.

[kcekada]

I have always wanted Thundra to replace Power Princess

She would have been the logical choice when they added the Wonder Woman counterpart in the 80s. Just like two Hyperions existed, there could have been another Thundra -- in addition to the one who hung out with the Fantastic Four.

[kcekada]

whoo boy. if Power Princess is on the nose, what is Thundra? doesn't she preside over an amazon society and wield a chain (instead of a lasso)? how is she less on the nose than Zarda?

Many ways.

Thundra is a redhead in red/gold. Zarda is brunette in red, white and blue (later changed to purple).
Thundra comes from future. Zarda is from contemporary times.
Thundra's society inhabited the USA. Zarda was from a tropical island.


Of course Thundra is based on Wonder Woman, but it's as obvious as it is with Zarda.

[Venom Melendez]

I think what Marvel and David Walker did to Supreme Power Nighthawk was a crime.

He died off screen, right?

[baltiroo]

Not quite sure what to think of this team. I've always enjoyed the concept, but I am super confused by all the multiples of the characters that have existed. Which ones am I following? Which Hyperion is this? What Blur? What Nighthawk? I must have missed something in between all the random appearances.

[kevlon]

He died off screen, right?

Correct. And absolutely ridiculous in my opinion.

[Michael Watkins]

Many ways.

Thundra is a redhead in red/gold.

Hyperion is a redhead in red/gold.

Zarda is brunette in red, white and blue (later changed to purple).

she's most known for the purple. so this is a huuge stretch imo.

Thundra comes from future. Zarda is from contemporary times.

that would count as a minor tweak of the Wonder Woman character. instead of being from the past, she's from the future.

Thundra's society inhabited the USA. Zarda was from a tropical island.

Thundra inhabited The United Sisterhood Republic on Femizonia. she currently resides in Weird World.

Of course Thundra is based on Wonder Woman.

that much we can agree on. it's obvious enough that you're not the only one to suggest her as the Wonder Woman analogue. what's so wrong with just having that preference? why try to justify it as Zarda being too on the nose? it's not like you mentioned the Utopians being a kree experiment or them building a spaceship to leave Earth. you definitely didn't mention her husband. her continuity does not follow Diana's.

[Michael Watkins]

Not quite sure what to think of this team. I've always enjoyed the concept, but I am super confused by all the multiples of the characters that have existed. Which ones am I following? Which Hyperion is this? What Blur? What Nighthawk? I must have missed something in between all the random appearances.

it's all kind of cleared up in this current run. they are Mephisto creations. you're starting on the ground floor like the rest of us.

[baltiroo]

it's all kind of cleared up in this current run. they are Mephisto creations. you're starting on the ground floor like the rest of us.

Thought that was the case, but wasn't completely certain. Thanks for clearing that up.

That said, I do miss the Hyperion from Hickman's run and Nighthawk from Occupy Avengers and his solo.

[CentralPower]

I'm still pissed that Robinson had Zarda from Earth-712 be the only survivor of her Squadron Supreme as it seems her reality was not restored post Secret Wars. Gruenwald's 80's series really established that SS into Marvel lore and unless someone revives them it would be a pity not to see them again.

The Gruenwald series was excellent for the time in came out (30+ years ago).

But, none of those characters have been used in anything worthwhile since then. Gruenwald using them in "Quasar" was the lowest form of self-indulgence. "New World Order" (published after Gruenwald's death, written by Kaminski maybe?) was set-up for nothing. The cameos in "eXiles" are....cameos in "eXiles".

Given how little of consequence they have been used in, it is hard to see the loss of that iteration of the team as any real loss.

I think they should stop using the parallel universe versions and just create a legitimate 616 Squadron. t

Having a mainline Squadron would be pointless. The characters work best in an editorial vacuum (alternate universe or some other "bottled" setting).

Not quite sure what to think of this team. I've always enjoyed the concept, but I am super confused by all the multiples of the characters that have existed. Which ones am I following? Which Hyperion is this? What Blur? What Nighthawk? I must have missed something in between all the random appearances.

The problem is that Marvel has multiple, often contrary and simultaneously over-lapping, variations of the same obscure characters. Even Marvel licensing cannot keep track of which iteration they are dealing with. (Look at the Hyperion figures. Those are either poor renditions of existing variations of the character, or technically *new* variations of that character.)

I like Hickman's Hyperion. But, despite a noble effort with a 2016 solo series, the character did not gain any traction.


I just hope that Marvel has a plan for the current, Aaron-penned, team.

Yeah, I think the appeal to the Squadron really is you can tell stories you can't tell in the regular DC or Marvel. Put them in the regular 616 and they just become another bunch of superheroes.

The counter-argument is that the industry has grown up since the bronze (and especially silver) age. The Gruenwald series technically predates "Watchmen".

I have asked this before (and never seen a good answer): Is there a need for the Squadron (especially as direct analogues for DC characters) if DC will publish "Red Son" or "Injustice" (both of which handle the same concepts as the Gruenwald "Squadron Supreme", and are better? Is there a need for the Squadron if Wildstorm (a DC imprint) publishes "the Authority" or...? You get the point.

I don't agree with that take. It was clear that universes were being built, but the limitation was Franklin's imagination. He has no knowledge of these other realities.

A new variation of the Ultimate universe was shown at the end of "Spider-Men 2" (Bendis' last work for Marvel). But, while it is officially shown to exist, I doubt that it will ever be used in anything significant.

[Michael Watkins]

Thought that was the case, but wasn't completely certain. Thanks for clearing that up.

That said, I do miss the Hyperion from Hickman's run and Nighthawk from Occupy Avengers and his solo.

Hyperion is, theoretically, still out there driving his truck. he wasn't killed (or replaced by Doc Nightshade).

[Michael Watkins]

Having a mainline Squadron would be pointless. The characters work best in an editorial vacuum (alternate universe or some other "bottled" setting).

the point is that, subconsciously, characters from the 616 are treated as more legitimate than alternate reality characters (w/ very few exceptions). creating 616 Squadron characters would not stop anyone from "vacuuming" them off. the X-Men pretty much existed in their own world for decades.