Squadron Supreme... Or Sinister?

[Snoop Dogg]

is anyone pleased by t'challa calling new squadron fake bitches today

[XPac]

is anyone pleased by t'challa calling new squadron fake bitches today

The whole scene with T'Challa start to finish was cool.

That said, as far as the Squadron being fake at this point I'm not sure any version can walk around claiming to be REAL. There's just too many.

[JudicatorPrime]

The whole scene with T'Challa start to finish was cool.

That said, as far as the Squadron being fake at this point I'm not sure any version can walk around claiming to be REAL. There's just too many.

Imagine being one of those Squadroners, though. You know you're alive and authentic...and you likely also think that you're unique, even if you do have some concept of a multiverse and divergent realities. Sure, I think Marvel screwed up by making too many different versions of the Squadron, just as I think they screw up whenever they have too many versions of Hulk, Wolverine, Iron Man, Thor, etc., etc., running around. But if editorial isn't going to rein writers in, I certainly don't expect fans to do so. At the end of the day, it's Marvel that is made the mockery.

[Thor-Ul]

The Gruenwald series was excellent for the time in came out (30+ years ago).

But, none of those characters have been used in anything worthwhile since then. Gruenwald using them in "Quasar" was the lowest form of self-indulgence. "New World Order" (published after Gruenwald's death, written by Kaminski maybe?) was set-up for nothing. The cameos in "eXiles" are....cameos in "eXiles".

Given how little of consequence they have been used in, it is hard to see the loss of that iteration of the team as any real loss.




Having a mainline Squadron would be pointless. The characters work best in an editorial vacuum (alternate universe or some other "bottled" setting).





The problem is that Marvel has multiple, often contrary and simultaneously over-lapping, variations of the same obscure characters. Even Marvel licensing cannot keep track of which iteration they are dealing with. (Look at the Hyperion figures. Those are either poor renditions of existing variations of the character, or technically *new* variations of that character.)

I like Hickman's Hyperion. But, despite a noble effort with a 2016 solo series, the character did not gain any traction.


I just hope that Marvel has a plan for the current, Aaron-penned, team.




The counter-argument is that the industry has grown up since the bronze (and especially silver) age. The Gruenwald series technically predates "Watchmen".

I have asked this before (and never seen a good answer): Is there a need for the Squadron (especially as direct analogues for DC characters) if DC will publish "Red Son" or "Injustice" (both of which handle the same concepts as the Gruenwald "Squadron Supreme", and are better? Is there a need for the Squadron if Wildstorm (a DC imprint) publishes "the Authority" or...? You get the point.





A new variation of the Ultimate universe was shown at the end of "Spider-Men 2" (Bendis' last work for Marvel). But, while it is officially shown to exist, I doubt that it will ever be used in anything significant.

CentralPower makes a lot of good points. Which role have the Squadron in the Marvel universe? Initially concepts like the Supreme Squadron was the way to make the Avengers fight unofficially The Justice League and show them to be better why winning them, something than Marvel loves to do a lot more than DC, (I mean, I see more DC doppelgangers in Marvel than Marvel Doppelgangers in DC, but it could be my bias). But that kind of interaction is more for specific issues or miniseries but hardly for an ongoing series. I mean, the Supreme Squadron is the way how the Avengers can have the Justice League to be their punching bag.
The only way they can sell the characters was putting them in situations where they can't put neither the Avengers or where they knew the Distinguished Competition would not go with the original characters. First Gruenwald with the original Squadron Supreme series and later Strazcynzky with his MAX Supreme Power series, where they raised the bet and show what will happen in "real life" with these superheroes with this powers. And the last was aimed for adults, with nude images included.

But the point is what would be the interest on these characters, who we know are expies of the competition, if we can buy the originals? To see them interact with the Avengers? They always are going to lose and/or they will be in the wrong side because the Avengers are the stars in the Marvel U. And they work worst when they inhabit in the main Marvel earth, because either they go under mental control or under arrest by SHIELD or undercover. The biggest interest of the last series was to see people from different realities trying to work together in a new universe.
And as minor characters, they don't need to have a tight coherence on them.

[j9ac9k]

I read the SSoA issue of "War of the Realms," but I haven't been following the event - do they have a significant appearance in any other issue?

[THORPERION]

CentralPower makes a lot of good points. Which role have the Squadron in the Marvel universe? Initially concepts like the Supreme Squadron was the way to make the Avengers fight unofficially The Justice League and show them to be better why winning them, something than Marvel loves to do a lot more than DC, (I mean, I see more DC doppelgangers in Marvel than Marvel Doppelgangers in DC, but it could be my bias). But that kind of interaction is more for specific issues or miniseries but hardly for an ongoing series. I mean, the Supreme Squadron is the way how the Avengers can have the Justice League to be their punching bag.
The only way they can sell the characters was putting them in situations where they can't put neither the Avengers or where they knew the Distinguished Competition would not go with the original characters. First Gruenwald with the original Squadron Supreme series and later Strazcynzky with his MAX Supreme Power series, where they raised the bet and show what will happen in "real life" with these superheroes with this powers. And the last was aimed for adults, with nude images included.

But the point is what would be the interest on these characters, who we know are expies of the competition, if we can buy the originals? To see them interact with the Avengers? They always are going to lose and/or they will be in the wrong side because the Avengers are the stars in the Marvel U. And they work worst when they inhabit in the main Marvel earth, because either they go under mental control or under arrest by SHIELD or undercover. The biggest interest of the last series was to see people from different realities trying to work together in a new universe.
And as minor characters, they don't need to have a tight coherence on them.

You kind of answered your own question: THE SS are superior to their DC analogues. If they weren’t, DC wouldn’t have come up with Watchmen to try and match the original Squadron’s groundbreaking epic. Something the JL has never done! Similarly, the JL ripped off a lot of the changes Gruenwald made to their characters. Superman and Batman as rivals based on Hyperion and Nighthawks relationship. Nighthawk having back up plans for eventualities. Heck, new 52 even copied the Hyperion/Princess romance with Superman and WW! Dr. Spectrum controls all the wavelengths of energy and their varied colors: GL now has Lanterns in every color ofthe spectrum!

[Snoop Dogg]

I read the SSoA issue of "War of the Realms," but I haven't been following the event - do they have a significant appearance in any other issue?

nope nope nope

[danielsan52]

is anyone pleased by t'challa calling new squadron fake bitches today

YUP. Now bring in the REAL Kyle.

[XPac]

YUP. Now bring in the REAL Kyle.

Was the last time we saw the 616 Nighthawk Fear Itself? If so, its been awhile.

[Michael Watkins]

YUP. Now bring in the REAL Kyle.

he's literally the worst Nighthawk. and i'm counting the Ultimate Universe one in that.

[XPac]

he's literally the worst Nighthawk. and i'm counting the Ultimate Universe one in that.

He was probably the second best super hero of the bunch. Gruenwald Nighthawk probably was the best... he was the Batman of his world. But the JMS version (who I am a fan of) was mostly a street crime sort of guy. When he started to do more big league super hero stuff post Secret Wars, he frankly did a terrible job leading the Squadron. Can't say much about the current version, and the Squadron Sinister version we saw in Secret Wars was a flat out villain.

[Michael Watkins]

He was probably the second best super hero of the bunch. Gruenwald Nighthawk probably was the best... he was the Batman of his world. But the JMS version (who I am a fan of) was mostly a street crime sort of guy. When he started to do more big league super hero stuff post Secret Wars, he frankly did a terrible job leading the Squadron.

you can call him the JMS version when JMS is writing him. the JMS version took down Hyperion and survived the heroes going fascist. he also survived the culling of his world. as for the Raymond Kane character, he led several successful attacks on world threats; including the attack on Atlantis. the writer decided that he couldn't let the team win. so he started pitting them solely against other groups of heroes. the Avengers did not capture them. the Thunderbolts did not defeat them. i'd say that he did a decent job of organizing a group of angry confused stragglers from other realities. but he was a loner and operated better alone; such as uncovering the threat of the Myriad. Defenders-Kyle hasn't led anything for comparison. he's had a few failed attempts to hire other "heroes." but it's nothing long term or to brag about. he'd be nothing without his trust fund. that's why he gave up and made Joaquin the new Nighthawk.

[XPac]

you can call him the JMS version when JMS is writing him. the JMS version took down Hyperion and survived the heroes going fascist. he also survived the culling of his world. as for the Raymond Kane character, he led several successful attacks on world threats; including the attack on Atlantis. the writer decided that he couldn't let the team win. so he started pitting them solely against other groups of heroes. the Avengers did not capture them. the Thunderbolts did not defeat them. i'd say that he did a decent job of organizing a group of angry confused stragglers from other realities. but he was a loner and operated better alone; such as uncovering the threat of the Myriad. Defenders-Kyle hasn't led anything for comparison. he's had a few failed attempts to hire other "heroes." but it's nothing long term or to brag about. he'd be nothing without his trust fund. that's why he gave up and made Joaquin the new Nighthawk.

I just call him the JMS version because I forget what number universe they assigned him. And yes, he did lead a sucessful attack on Atlantis... but really that shot the team in the foot day one as they basically spend their entire time fighting other super heroes aside from the Weird World stuff. That team ended up being a big mess, and they all knew it when they broke up.

As for 616 Kyle... as part of the Defenders he did plenty of super heroic stuff. As a group they saved the world and tackled plenty of major league threats. Not that Kyle did it single handedly or anything like that, but he contributed. He hasn't done anything AFTER Defenders... but as a whole, he probably has the best run as a hero among the Nighthawks.

[Michael Watkins]

I just call him the JMS version because I forget what number universe they assigned him. And yes, he did lead a sucessful attack on Atlantis... but really that shot the team in the foot day one as they basically spend their entire time fighting other super heroes aside from the Weird World stuff. That team ended up being a big mess, and they all knew it when they broke up.

solely because the writer needed to end the series and disband the team. it's not what he promised before the debut of the book. you don't really think that they brought back the original Zarda to just break the team up, right? editorial probably interfered or something. they would have been united by needing to stop the Myriad. they even went so far as to alter Hammond/make him into a nuclear powered character (Nuke). at the same time they had the Squadron undo Namor's (Amphibion) death.

As for 616 Kyle... as part of the Defenders he did plenty of super heroic stuff. As a group they saved the world and tackled plenty of major league threats. Not that Kyle did it single handedly or anything like that, but he contributed. He hasn't done anything AFTER Defenders... but as a whole, he probably has the best run as a hero among the Nighthawks.

he was the weak link of the team. he has admitted it. it's not hard to save the world when the Hulk, Doctor Strange, and Silver Surfer are on your side (and not by any choice of their own). MAX Supreme Power Nighthawk often didn't need or want a team. but, when they were needed, he was able to get them to do what he wanted (ex. against Redstone). He was smarter and a higher achiever than 616 Kyle. and the Squadron Universe Kyle was the friggin President and successfully led a revolt against his former team. they are just operating on a higher level. 616 Kyle is a lot like 90s Iceman; a born underachiever despite whatever potential he may have. there's also the visual diversity to take into account. I could bear it if 616 Kyle was Nighthawk and Blur was the one from the MAX series. but, as is, he's just a bland guy beneath the cowl; no edge to him at all. he's like Ted Kord and not in the good way (imo).

[CentralPower]

Hyperion is, theoretically, still out there driving his truck. he wasn't killed (or replaced by Doc Nightshade).

The Hickman Hyperion was last seen injured in a background shot during "Secret Empire". It was not clear if he survived, possibly clearing the way for the current Hyperion to be yet another iteration of the character.

I just call him the JMS version because I forget what number universe they assigned him. And yes, he did lead a sucessful attack on Atlantis... but really that shot the team in the foot day one as they basically spend their entire time fighting other super heroes aside from the Weird World stuff.

I dunno. You screw up on that scale, you are doing something right.

That said, as far as the Squadron being fake at this point I'm not sure any version can walk around claiming to be REAL. There's just too many.

A few issues back, there was a scene with Nighthawk that implied that the characters were mind-controlled. And, considering that this is (generic) comics, there is not reason to assume that the current Nighthawk is not a "back from the dead" Raymond Kane (aka the "Supreme Power" character).

(I mean, I see more DC doppelgangers in Marvel than Marvel Doppelgangers in DC, but it could be my bias).

I am not sure about hard numbers. But, Marvel pushes the bastardized characters more, and is more likely to treat them as clowns.

do they have a significant appearance in any other issue?

They show up in "meanwhile..." type interludes that are (presumably) setting and building up to something.

THE SS are superior to their DC analogues.....

No. Just... No. DC is not taking cures from Marvel's use of obscure bastardizations of DC's biggest characters.

The changes you are citing are a function of of DC (and the industry as a whole) growing the hell up since the bronze age. (Frankly, DC traditionally pitches higher than Marvel.)

He was probably the second best super hero of the bunch. Gruenwald Nighthawk probably was the best... he was the Batman of his world. But the JMS version (who I am a fan of) was mostly a street crime sort of guy. When he started to do more big league super hero stuff post Secret Wars, he frankly did a terrible job leading the Squadron. Can't say much about the current version, and the Squadron Sinister version we saw in Secret Wars was a flat out villain.

I like the idea of the "New Wold Order" Nighthawk (the son of the Gruenwald Nighthawk). But, nothing was ever done with that character.

I would not mind seeing the "Squadron Sinister" return. But, that is a long shot. (Honestly, I would like to see a continuation of that series. Assuming that Nighthawk somehow survived, Zarda and Prism also survived. It would be easy enough to have them fighting New Universe characters, with the Squadron as "beloved tyrants".