Squadron Supreme... Or Sinister?

[XPac]

solely because the writer needed to end the series and disband the team. it's not what he promised before the debut of the book. you don't really think that they brought back the original Zarda to just break the team up, right? editorial probably interfered or something. they would have been united by needing to stop the Myriad. they even went so far as to alter Hammond/make him into a nuclear powered character (Nuke). at the same time they had the Squadron undo Namor's (Amphibion) death.



he was the weak link of the team. he has admitted it. it's not hard to save the world when the Hulk, Doctor Strange, and Silver Surfer are on your side (and not by any choice of their own). MAX Supreme Power Nighthawk often didn't need or want a team. but, when they were needed, he was able to get them to do what he wanted (ex. against Redstone). He was smarter and a higher achiever than 616 Kyle. and the Squadron Universe Kyle was the friggin President and successfully led a revolt against his former team. they are just operating on a higher level. 616 Kyle is a lot like 90s Iceman; a born underachiever despite whatever potential he may have. there's also the visual diversity to take into account. I could bear it if 616 Kyle was Nighthawk and Blur was the one from the MAX series. but, as is, he's just a bland guy beneath the cowl; no edge to him at all. he's like Ted Kord and not in the good way (imo).

I agree about the Gruenwald Nighthawk being ahead of the 616 Kyke and I said so. He's Captain America level where he's from. We don't see it on panel, but I think in handbooks they flat out say he's the second most effective hero on the planet aside from Hyperion, which says something from a guy with no powers.

But the JMS Kyle... not so much. He mostly on a street level prior to Secret Wars. There were exceptions to that, but that was his niche. Again, post Secret Wars he did step into the big leagues... but they pretty much sucked. Yeah, you can say it's not hard to save the world with Hulk, Dr. Strange and Silver Surfer. But in theory it shouldn't be that hard with a Superman, Wonder Woman, and Green Lantern analogue either... problem being again they sucked. You can say they had the potential to do more had they not be cancelled, but potential and a dollar won't buy you a cup of coffee.

[kcekada]

Hyperion is a redhead in red/gold.

that much we can agree on. it's obvious enough that you're not the only one to suggest her as the Wonder Woman analogue. what's so wrong with just having that preference? why try to justify it as Zarda being too on the nose? it's not like you mentioned the Utopians being a kree experiment or them building a spaceship to leave Earth. you definitely didn't mention her husband. her continuity does not follow Diana's.

Oh, I'm going back to when she was first introduced. Certainly, layers have been added after the fact -- and I have nothing against the character now. I just felt Thundra would have been a more inspired choice way back when Marvel introduced a WW analog. Of course, I didn't feel those issues of Defenders were very well-written or illustrated -- so I'm not surprised the writer didn't user Thundra (who had been written out of comics at that point).

The Femizons USR was clearly shown on the North American continent. They may have called it Femizonia, but they were on a future Earth.

Regarding the red/yellow and red hair matching Hyperion's. Well, that was kinda the point. Both power couples having similar looks. Power Princess just looked like Wonder Woman in a different outfit.

[Michael Watkins]

I agree about the Gruenwald Nighthawk being ahead of the 616 Kyke and I said so. He's Captain America level where he's from. We don't see it on panel, but I think in handbooks they flat out say he's the second most effective hero on the planet aside from Hyperion, which says something from a guy with no powers.

But the JMS Kyle... not so much. He mostly on a street level prior to Secret Wars. There were exceptions to that, but that was his niche. Again, post Secret Wars he did step into the big leagues... but they pretty much sucked. Yeah, you can say it's not hard to save the world with Hulk, Dr. Strange and Silver Surfer. But in theory it shouldn't be that hard with a Superman, Wonder Woman, and Green Lantern analogue either... problem being again they sucked. You can say they had the potential to do more had they not be cancelled, but potential and a dollar won't buy you a cup of coffee.

the MAX universe was one that tried to adhere to realism. it was a more brutal environment. And the heroes could not depend on the good triumphing over evil trope or the villains making some kind of easy error to lose. MAX Nighthawk rose to a position of influence in that more realistic environment. And he did it again when he was thrown into the marvel universe. He did not come here with a business or an underwater base. He was monitoring pretty much everyone. And he assembled a powerful enough team to destroy Atlantis and defy the Avengers. A lot of their wins were offpanel. But they cover them in the first issue and show public reaction. If they suck, then the Avengers suck. Because I remember Blur, at Nighthawk's direction, making Quicksilver look like he had never run before. No maneuver that Nighthawk took a personal hand in failed. The team, like the Defenders, was just made up of individuals who were not invested in their new world. And they lasted just as long if not longer than the team that Kyle formed.

[Cville]

He died off screen, right?

Not quite. He dies in the opening pages of Occupy Avengers Secret Empire. The final issue I think. He is in a protest against the Hydra takeover and the police gun him down because he is in the front when the shooting starts.

[XPac]

the MAX universe was one that tried to adhere to realism. it was a more brutal environment. And the heroes could not depend on the good triumphing over evil trope or the villains making some kind of easy error to lose. MAX Nighthawk rose to a position of influence in that more realistic environment. And he did it again when he was thrown into the marvel universe. He did not come here with a business or an underwater base. He was monitoring pretty much everyone. And he assembled a powerful enough team to destroy Atlantis and defy the Avengers. A lot of their wins were offpanel. But they cover them in the first issue and show public reaction. If they suck, then the Avengers suck. Because I remember Blur, at Nighthawk's direction, making Quicksilver look like he had never run before. No maneuver that Nighthawk took a personal hand in failed. The team, like the Defenders, was just made up of individuals who were not invested in their new world. And they lasted just as long if not longer than the team that Kyle formed.

He convinced Hyperion to destroy Atlantis... I can give him props for being persuasive, but that doesn't ultimately mean he was doing a good job. And yeah... they defied the Avengers by being lucky enough to escape because Thundra was there to help them. That's more luck than skill to be blunt. Despite being prepped to fight the Avengers (and probably being more powerful man for man than the Uncanny team), they were only doing so-so in the fight. I guess you can give him some credit for being the first Squadron team to ever NOT be completely defeated by the Avengers, but that only gets him so much credit.

THe Squadron themselves admit they did ONE thing heroic... the Weird world stuff. And that was something they randomly just stumbled into. Again by their own admission everything else was just them fighting other heroes. They sucked and they KNOW they sucked. So they bailed. Avengers and Defenders have accomplished far more than that in the same amount of time. I'll concede Kyle hasn't really done anything noteworthy since the original Defenders run... but that first run still puts him ahead of what th Squadron accomplished post Secret Wars.

[Thor-Ul]

Not quite. He dies in the opening pages of Occupy Avengers Secret Empire. The final issue I think. He is in a protest against the Hydra takeover and the police gun him down because he is in the front when the shooting starts.

That is.... very much anticlimatic. For a Batman expy, I mean.

He convinced Hyperion to destroy Atlantis... I can give him props for being persuasive, but that doesn't ultimately mean he was doing a good job. And yeah... they defied the Avengers by being lucky enough to escape because Thundra was there to help them. That's more luck than skill to be blunt. Despite being prepped to fight the Avengers (and probably being more powerful man for man than the Uncanny team), they were only doing so-so in the fight. I guess you can give him some credit for being the first Squadron team to ever NOT be completely defeated by the Avengers, but that only gets him so much credit.

That is a great merit for them.

THe Squadron themselves admit they did ONE thing heroic... the Weird world stuff. And that was something they randomly just stumbled into. Again by their own admission everything else was just them fighting other heroes. They sucked and they KNOW they sucked. So they bailed. Avengers and Defenders have accomplished far more than that in the same amount of time. I'll concede Kyle hasn't really done anything noteworthy since the original Defenders run... but that first run still puts him ahead of what th Squadron accomplished post Secret Wars.

That is their function in the Marvel universe. To suck and make the Avengers and Defenders to look even better. Understandable and nothing subtle. Maybe Gruenwald was the only one who treat them as interesting characters with narrative possibilities and not only as punching bags strawmen for the newest Avengers alignment.

[Michael Watkins]

He convinced Hyperion to destroy Atlantis... I can give him props for being persuasive, but that doesn't ultimately mean he was doing a good job. And yeah... they defied the Avengers by being lucky enough to escape because Thundra was there to help them. That's more luck than skill to be blunt. Despite being prepped to fight the Avengers (and probably being more powerful man for man than the Uncanny team), they were only doing so-so in the fight. I guess you can give him some credit for being the first Squadron team to ever NOT be completely defeated by the Avengers, but that only gets him so much credit.

THe Squadron themselves admit they did ONE thing heroic... the Weird world stuff. And that was something they randomly just stumbled into. Again by their own admission everything else was just them fighting other heroes. They sucked and they KNOW they sucked. So they bailed. Avengers and Defenders have accomplished far more than that in the same amount of time. I'll concede Kyle hasn't really done anything noteworthy since the original Defenders run... but that first run still puts him ahead of what th Squadron accomplished post Secret Wars.

the writer contradicted himself. reread the first issue (the news shows their activity). the avengers came after them because they killed Namor; by their account. whether they were just in doing that is an entirely separate conversation (I think the Avengers showed a lot of moral cowardice). but we're supposed to be comparing two Kyle's. you said that the 616 version was the second best. i'm making a case for him not actually being as formidable as his alternate reality counterparts. you're focused on the teams because it's an easier argument since (because the writer was treating them as villains) they didn't "win" a few altercations. again, MAX Kyle survived the destruction of a world and rebuilt what he had in a new universe (plus forming a superhero force).

[XPac]

the writer contradicted himself. reread the first issue (the news shows their activity). the avengers came after them because they killed Namor; by their account. whether they were just in doing that is an entirely separate conversation (I think the Avengers showed a lot of moral cowardice). but we're supposed to be comparing two Kyle's. you said that the 616 version was the second best. i'm making a case for him not actually being as formidable as his alternate reality counterparts. you're focused on the teams because it's an easier argument since (because the writer was treating them as villains) they didn't "win" a few altercations. again, MAX Kyle survived the destruction of a world and rebuilt what he had in a new universe (plus forming a superhero force).

Yeah, I'm largely focusing on the team stuff because that's where it's easiest t compare the two apples to apples. Outside of that in the post Secret Wars era, he largely focused on street level stuff. Nothing wrong with that, but it's operating at a very different scale than what 616 Kyle did as a Defender.

[Ursalink]

Black Panther's confrontation to Coulson and the Squadron Supreme is really worrying. Something terrible is definitely incoming!!

[Michael Watkins]

Yeah, I'm largely focusing on the team stuff because that's where it's easiest t compare the two apples to apples. Outside of that in the post Secret Wars era, he largely focused on street level stuff. Nothing wrong with that, but it's operating at a very different scale than what 616 Kyle did as a Defender.

both are street level crimefighters. one, merit be damned, got to run around with the Defenders. it's not a fair comparison. MAX Kyle Richmond has a better resume and a very narrow focus. it was still his plan that took down Redstone. it was still his resourcefulness that allowed him to defeat Hyperion. and post secret wars, he took down a prolific serial killer that the police apparently couldn't handle. he also convinced Nightshade to work for him. the only other person she respected was T'challa. who respects 616 Kyle? he seemed to be everyone's underling during Civil War. all i'm saying is that one of these characters isn't thriving in their own home reality (has enhanced strength) and has given up a number of times. the other (no special abilities) built himself up from nothing in a foreign reality and still got right back to taking out threats to the public.

[Michael Watkins]

[CentralPower]

That is.... very much anticlimatic. For a Batman expy, I mean.

Keep in mind, the Ultimate Power (or whatever) Nighthawk was a relatively controversial variant of a character that was obscure to begin with. (Few people knew or cared about this Nighthawk, and they could not even agree if they liked the character.)

Maybe Gruenwald was the only one who treat them as interesting characters with narrative possibilities and not only as punching bags strawmen for the newest Avengers alignment.

That nails it. 40 years of the characters' existence, and you nailed it in one damned sentence. (You could actually shuck the "maybe".) Even Gruenwald wrote them as failing.

The Squadron work as deconstructions of comicbook hero cliches. That is why they work in a vacuum. The minute they are paired against mainline characters (that succeed based on cliche), the Squadron are reduced to being clowns and punching bags.

who respects 616 Kyle? he seemed to be everyone's underling during Civil War. all i'm saying is that one of these characters isn't thriving in their own home reality (has enhanced strength) and has given up a number of times. the other (no special abilities) built himself up from nothing in a foreign reality and still got right back to taking out threats to the public.

That sounds like succeeding through the use of comicbook cliche...

[XPac]

both are street level crimefighters. one, merit be damned, got to run around with the Defenders. it's not a fair comparison. MAX Kyle Richmond has a better resume and a very narrow focus. it was still his plan that took down Redstone. it was still his resourcefulness that allowed him to defeat Hyperion. and post secret wars, he took down a prolific serial killer that the police apparently couldn't handle. he also convinced Nightshade to work for him. the only other person she respected was T'challa. who respects 616 Kyle? he seemed to be everyone's underling during Civil War. all i'm saying is that one of these characters isn't thriving in their own home reality (has enhanced strength) and has given up a number of times. the other (no special abilities) built himself up from nothing in a foreign reality and still got right back to taking out threats to the public.

You're not street level if you're Defenders, which is like 99% of 616 Kyles publication history. On the average I'd say Defenders regularly dealt with higher end stuff than the Avengers did at least on their first run. But it's not an entirely fair comparison, which is why it's easiest to compare when Kyle is doing Squadron Supreme post Secret Wars. That's when he's at least theoretically stepping onto a bigger stage to deal with larger scale issues.

And I'd say Kyle got the respect of his fellow Defenders... Strange, Valkyrie, Surfer, etc. Which in my book honestly counts more than the respect of a just reformed super villain like Nightshade. No offense to her, but I'll take the views of a god or a sorcerer supreme or a hell lord or a herald of Galactus over hers.

[Michael Watkins]

You're not street level if you're Defenders,

he literally looked at Luke Cage's avengers team (half of which were street level) and said that they looked like Defenders. you can be a street level hero and adventure with characters who are way out of your league i.e. Ant-Man hung with the Fantastic Four and Guardians of the Galaxy.

And I'd say Kyle got the respect of his fellow Defenders... Strange, Valkyrie, Surfer, etc.

do they return his calls? i remember him having to hire Paladin, Junta, and Atlas during the Civil War era. is Hellcat not street level?

[Michael Watkins]

That sounds like succeeding through the use of comicbook cliche...

that's how i would describe Batman's career, yes.