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  1. #1
    Spectacular Member Beaddle's Avatar
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    Default The biggest let down with Endgame was not Fat Thor. (Spoilers)

    The fat Thor gag didnít bother me for a second. Endgameís biggest let down was time travel. Time Travel plot devices are a battered over used trope in fiction. Endgame went on to deliver one of the most cliche use of time travel in a film and believe me, I have seen everything time travel, right down to the ridiculousness of Hot Tube Time Machine, chick flicks romance like The Time Travellerís Wife, science fiction movies that range from Star Trek:The Voyage home to De Ja Vu, The Days of future Past and Dragon Ball Z:The history of Trunks anime comic movies to straight on wizard fantasy like Harry Potter and The Prisoner of Azkaban.

    Endgame's has one of the cheapest time travel stories ever. The movie broke the rules of how to tell a good time travel story. Time travel plot devices are supposed to be constant in a movie about time. Itís the other main character that doesnít speak dialogue but remains the most important character. Writers donít introduce time travel in one act, make it work completely and get rid of it in the same act. Endgame is Disneyís juvenile science fiction writing at the very worst. Time travel plot devices are meant to be more effective in the final moments of the movieís story, raising the stakes in time travel films. We the audience or reader must believe that the protagonists in the story are aware that time can slip from their hands even in the final moments. Time travel movies are not meant to have a fixed ending either due to ripple effects. Writers tend to create doubts in the readers mind, making them wonder if the protagonists did change the past or create an alternate reality.

    Away from the dismal time travel plot and fat Thor, the final moments of Endgame should have gotten scrapped to avoid any call backs to Loki from Avengers 1. Itís the cliche of all cliches tropes. Donít writers have another trope they can use for Avengers movies than a Villain who brings armies from another dimension for the Avengers to fight.The movie should have had the final act focus more on the time travel element than treating it as a one off arc in the second act of the movie. What would have been more predictable than using time travel to bring everyone back to fight Thanos? We called it after Infinity War and marvel did that exactly.

    The other biggest let down of Endgame was trying to set up what looks like a dystopian movie without it not wanting to be a dystopian movie five years after Infinity War. It felt as if Marvel was holding back on fully embracing the link between time travel stories and dystopian stories. Marvel did not want the audience to believe our Avengers are now in a bleak world of shambles, I am convinced Marvel came up with the fat thor gag to ease the idea of dystopianility in Endgame, Bruce Banner as a happy professor,Tony Stark living a normal family life. Great time travel stories comes from the need of the protagonists realization of a world that has no choice but to be free from bleakness, not a world the protagonists become too comfortable in their present situation. The only person who is utterly affected with the events of Infinity war was Hawkeye. Endgame may have been a fan service love letter ending to the series but Endgame was too juvenile for what it was trying to take on or failed to embrace, gut wrenching dystopian time travel movies.

  2. #2
    Astonishing Member AJBopp's Avatar
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    Just wanna point some things I always thought were obvious.

    There are no rules about time travel stories. The whole point of a good story is to create its own little reality for you to escape into. If it bugs someone that a story used time travel is a way that didn't meet their expectations, that's on them, not the movie. "Time travel plot devices are supposed to be...." "Writers don’t introduce time travel in one act, make it work completely and get rid of it in the same act" "Time travel plot devices are meant to be" "Time travel movies are not meant to have" are all examples of a a mindset not prepared to enjoy a fantasy story for what it is, unless it's a retread of something they saw before. In reality, the best stories, especially the fantasy ones, don't work that way.

    And fat Thor was dismal apparently, but it's never explained why. I wonder if there's really a reason for this beyond "it's not what was expected"

    I wonder what would have been an improved third act if there hadn't been thousands of "killable" adversaries for 50 Avengers to battle with. This scene was the one thing everyone in the world wanted to see. Had been waiting years to see.

    All of the remaining Avengers were coping with a dystopian world except Tony and Bruce (and we can't be sure about Bruce, but I'll go with that part we actually see on screen). How is it possible to miss this?
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  3. #3
    The Kid 80sbaby's Avatar
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    I'm going to agree with AJBopp...it seems your issues come from preconceived notions about time travel (which the film specifically tells you NOT to do) and missing a few things in regards to their bleak present.

    I'm also not sure if you know what "cliche" means?

  4. #4
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    I actually found Endgames use of time travel the most sound I ever saw in a film and I love time travel movies they're fun but they all run into Paradox problems when changing history.

    Outside of Dr. Who which has two main rules to time travel to avoid paradoxes one Fix Points in time moments which if changed the ramifications are too vast for the timeline to handle and thus can't be changed and two you can't change events you already know the outcome of.

    The idea if you change history it creates a separate parallel timeline to your own is really good way to explain away paradoxes.

  5. #5
    Mighty Member Calighoula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJBopp View Post
    I wonder what would have been an improved third act if there hadn't been thousands of "killable" adversaries for 50 Avengers to battle with. This scene was the one thing everyone in the world wanted to see. Had been waiting years to see.
    What would have improved the third act is actually having Hulk do something apart from recreating the cover to Secret Wars #4 for 15 seconds.

  6. #6
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    All throughout the Avengers and related movies they've been very careful on exactly how the Hulk is used. By necessity, because he could ruin any storyline potentially with very little effort.

    Overall I have been disappointed with the various starts and stops with the Hulk, with little to no explanation. He went from raging Hulk to intelligent raging Hulk to Professor Hulk. Somewhere in the middle had this romantic thing with Natalie. Those movies just bumbled all over the place with him. But it was like all the MCU movies, the actor had enough charisma to pull it off and make it enjoyable anyhow.
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  7. #7
    Mighty Member Calighoula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    All throughout the Avengers and related movies they've been very careful on exactly how the Hulk is used. By necessity, because he could ruin any storyline potentially with very little effort.

    Overall I have been disappointed with the various starts and stops with the Hulk, with little to no explanation. He went from raging Hulk to intelligent raging Hulk to Professor Hulk. Somewhere in the middle had this romantic thing with Natalie. Those movies just bumbled all over the place with him. But it was like all the MCU movies, the actor had enough charisma to pull it off and make it enjoyable anyhow.
    That forced invisible romance with Natasha was so silly. I think very few people found that viable. At this point, I don't care if they recast Ruffalo. It's been downhill for him since the first Avengers.

  8. #8
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    As a Hulk fan I'm a bit dissapointed with how the MCU Hulk turned out. While certainly he's fun, he's really far from the comics Hulk, and Rufallo's Banner really has none of the inner turmoil of the comic's character (Even without the father/mental illness aspect to his origin introduced in the 80s, Hulk was always a bit angsty, even compared to other down-on-their-luck heroes like Spidey). I guess after the more serious approach utilized in the Ang Lee and Norton films they figured a serious Hulk wouldn't work out, and of course there's the rights issues with Universal which I guess prevent a solo Hulk.
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  9. #9
    Extraordinary Member Cyke's Avatar
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    My biggest issue with time travel is if it undermines a lot of things -- Back to the Future is relatively fine since it was new at the time, whereas Star Trek is super careful not to do so precisely because it has years and years of canon behind it.

    I can't deny that some of the time travel in Endgame is messy, but it avoided the one thing I feared the most -- making either Infinity War and/or the preceding 20 movies irrelevant. On the contrary, the whole mission was to preserve all that, not undo the events leading up to it.

  10. #10
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    The movie used time travel pretty well. In fact, it's one of the few where the internal logic based on the established rules not only makes sense, but is faithfully followed. They also dodged the usual problem of time travel being the ultimate reset button and removing the stakes ("we can just go back and try again until we get it right) by establishing that they can't undo what's been done with the time travel system.

    I think the most disappointing thing was that Black Widow and Gamorra couldn't be there for the "Marvel women's moment" in the final act (given that they were the originals in these movies), but it did make sense based on the story and how that progressed.
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  11. #11
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    I agree time travel was used badly in the movie. Especially going by the writers interpretation, they basically took causality out of the equation which really doesn't work.

  12. #12
    Unglaublich!
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post

    I think the most disappointing thing was that Black Widow and Gamorra couldn't be there for the "Marvel women's moment" in the final act (given that they were the originals in these movies), but it did make sense based on the story and how that progressed.
    Gamora was in that A-Force moment. Admittedly, it was 2014's Gamora but she was still there.

  13. #13
    The Kid 80sbaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CliffHanger2 View Post
    I agree time travel was used badly in the movie. Especially going by the writers interpretation, they basically took causality out of the equation which really doesn't work.
    That's why we should ignore the writer's intentions and go by what we were actually shown on screen.

  14. #14
    Swollen Member GOLGO 13's Avatar
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    I liked FAThor. Outside his deep trauma & self destructive behavior, the idea of a emo-fat Viking drinking/talking smack on xbox live feel...right. Yeah, it feels right.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by 80sbaby View Post
    That's why we should ignore the writer's intentions and go by what we were actually shown on screen.
    Well yeah that's an option.

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