The biggest let down with Endgame was not Fat Thor. (Spoilers)

[Midvillian1322]

The rules themselves were very solid but there were a couple of questionable points as to whether they stuck to the rules. You will create an alternate timeline by going back and swiping an infinity gem. But once you return that gem to the exact instant it was taken- so that it effectively was never removed- that other reality will correct itself and never have happened.

The problem is whether there were some things that defied that premise.

People cant even seem to agree on what the ancient one meant. Marvel coulda been purposeful vague for all I know. I still assert that anything that gets changed causes a new timeline. Putting the stone back just stopped That time line from falling to complete darkness. It's the thorey that fits the best with what we see and the one the Directors seem to back. Only question is how Cap got back and where he got the Sheild. Did he make a new one or steal it from that timelines cap. If you try to fit it into one timeline nothing really works.

[Steel Inquisitor]

People cant even seem to agree on what the ancient one meant. Marvel coulda been purposeful vague for all I know. I still assert that anything that gets changed causes a new timeline. Putting the stone back just stopped That time line from falling to complete darkness. It's the thorey that fits the best with what we see and the one the Directors seem to back. Only question is how Cap got back and where he got the Sheild. Did he make a new one or steal it from that timelines cap. If you try to fit it into one timeline nothing really works.

I disagree. Hulk and the Ancient One had a very up front conversation about time travel and alternate time lines, including a physical representation.

[Midvillian1322]

I disagree. Hulk and the Ancient One had a very up front conversation about time travel and alternate time lines, including a physical representation.

She basically say by removing the time stone he would create a new time line and Doom hers to darkness. And then Hulks states if they put it right back where they got it nothing changes and that timeline gets erased. Which would have worked if they got all the stones without changing anything took them back to the present undid the snap and then brought the stones back to the exact place and time they got them. But they screw up and change a bunch of stuff along the way. I dont get where people are getting this idea that you can only create a new timeline by removing a stone. She never says that, the example she gives is by removing a stone since that's what Hulk was there for. She very Vague when talking about her reality and his and the Stones purpose with time. They create the flow of time but removing doesnt destroy her reality just leaves them no way of stopping Dormammu and the forces of darkness. Everything she says is vague and open to interpretation. But the movie itself if it wants to make sense is pretty clear.

I just dont see how ones closed loop timeline makes any sense. Unless your only explanation is.. Magical Stones... dont worry about it. Alternate timelines fits works perfectly and the only issues are questions that can be answered later or not. Like how cap got back and where that Sheild came from. Either he took somebody's or Tchalla secretly made another one for him.

[JKtheMac]

The Ancient One said the stones create what we perceive as the flow of time. Thanos destroyed the stones. So time should stop? Go wibbly wobbly?

Are we sure Gamora jumped to the main timeline? That should create another timeline as well.

You are absolutely correct that the Ancient One said that the stones create what we perceive as the flow of time. Pause and think about that for a moment. From Iron Man to Infinity War we had a single flow of time. No branches, no multiverse, no alternative universes as we would perceive them from the comics.

Then in Endgame we are shown a new possibility. If a stone is removed from that single timeline then a new branch occurs. Nobody said anything about branching except in this conversation. As long as the stones are put back into the timestream at the exact moment they were removed there are no branches. That means that there are no consequences to the timeline. Just a single linear story in which a few time travellers who have their own ideas about time travel are argued against and shown to be incorrect by the universe’s expert on time travel, The Ancient One.

BUT, and it’s a big but. Thanos is a character that refuses to play by the rules. He disrupts the natural order in two ways.

1. In his branched reality, which continues to exist until Cap goes back and puts the stone back (let’s call him Thanos2), he realises that the heroes are gathering all of the stones, and his plan is entirely based upon getting them all together. So he cheats the system. He finds a way to travel from his branched universe into the prime universe. That isn’t how he sees it or how he explains it in the movie, but that’s irrelevant. Thanos2, by hook or by crook, ends up in the prime timeline and seeks to use the stones for his own purposes. He is ultimately thwarted and then Cap goes back and erases that branch. That doesn’t change the fact that a character from that branch, Thanos2 and his army, cropped up in the primary timeline and did what they did, but it does effectively delete everything else that happened in that alternative universe.

2. The Thanos that Thor beheaded, Thanos1, destroys the stones. What this means will probably be explored in future movies, but clearly it did not end time. So some simple possibilities spring to mind:

- The stones are not actually needed to maintain our perception of time. Unlikely if we assume The Ancient One understands how time works.

- Without the stones to maintain a single timeline we are left with a branching multiverse. This could actually make sense. We already have references to a multiverse in Spider-Man FFH, even if they are ultimately discounted. We could eventually see the multiverse as a plot device, and casual hints might just be preparing us for this.

- The stones can’t actually be destroyed. Thanos1 thinks he destroyed them but ultimately he just dispersed them and they have taken new forms.

—-
Gamora2 seems to have survived. If she did she is from a universe that has since been collapsed. She is a kind of multiversal orphan. That does not necessitate a new branch. She retains her memories of a time branch that no longer exists.

[JKtheMac]

Unless your only explanation is.. Magical Stones... dont worry about it.

By Jove he’s got it!

[80sbaby]

- The stones can’t actually be destroyed. Thanos1 thinks he destroyed them but ultimately he just dispersed them and they have taken new forms.

The Russo's said this is the correct answer. Which is why there is no single timeline and the branches still exist, per them.

[JKtheMac]

The Russo's said this is the correct answer. Which is why there is no single timeline and the branches still exist, per them.

And they don’t get to ultimately decide on this do they?

And the Russo’s clearly don’t fully understand the actual writers and text of their own movie based upon their nonsensical suggestions about Cap jumping timelines.

The dialogue goes out of its way to explain that there are no other timelines we should worry about and yet the directors jump to them as a way of explaining away what was never a logical problem.

Perhaps we should let them do what they are good at and direct movies and leave the writing and the explaining to the writers.

[80sbaby]

And they don’t get to ultimately decide on this do they?

And the Russo’s clearly don’t fully understand the actual writers and text of their own movie based upon their nonsensical suggestions about Cap jumping timeline.

Perhaps we should let them do what they are good at and direct movies and leave the writing and the explaining to the writers.

1. Yeah, they kind of do as the directors. The only person who could override them is Feige and he hasn't contradicted them.

2. The directors are allowed to override the writer's. It happens all the time in filming. The writers' intentions take a back seat to the director's vision. And the text actually backs them up.

3. They did. They directed it the way they wanted to have the story be seen, regardless of what the writers wanted. That's how movie making generally goes.

[JKtheMac]

1. Yeah, they kind of do as the directors. The only person who could override them is Feige and he hasn't contradicted them.

Yet. Any movie in the future could contradict anything that a director says to a fan or the press, precisely because it’s not contradictory of the movies.

2. The directors are allowed to override the writer's. It happens all the time in filming. The writers' intentions take a back seat to the director's vision. And the text actually backs them up.

We are not talking about what the directors have control over when making a movie. I am simply pointing out that anything they say about the movies they have already made is not canon.

3. They did. They directed it the way they wanted to have the story be seen, regardless of what the writers wanted. That's how movie making generally goes.

So? What has that got to do with anything? We watched a story being told and we (or at least some of us) don’t see any major problems with it. Some seem to believe there are problems, and as many of us have pointed out, those are mostly perceptions not actual problems. We don’t need to rely on what one of the directors thinks to understand it. Especially when what they think is illogical.

[80sbaby]

Yet. Any movie in the future could contradict anything that a director says to a fan or the press, precisely because it’s not contradictory of the movies.

And when THAT happens, we can revisit this conversation. That would be a retcon. However, since it hasn't occured yet, what they say stands.

We are not talking about what the directors have control over when making a movie. I am simply pointing out that anything they say about the movies they have already made is not canon.

It literally is canon. That's how canon works. Unless someone higher up corrects them, or a new film/show retcons things. Neither has happened.

So? What has that got to do with anything? We watched a story being told and we (or at least some of us) don’t see any major problems with it. Some seem to believe there are problems, and as many of us have pointed out, those are mostly perceptions not actual problems. We don’t need to rely on what one of the directors thinks to understand it. Especially when what they think is illogical.

I'm not relying on them. I watched the same film you did and reached the same conclusion as the Russos, prior to them saying anything. I'm merely using them because some people still seem to be confused by what they saw on screen. My hope is that their word will finally put the issue to rest. Guess not.

[JKtheMac]

For me the biggest question I would like answered about Endgame and time travel is why was the conversation between Banner and The Ancient One reshot. Apparently much of what we see in the resulting movie was added towards the end of the production. I wonder if the movie received notes that suggested the timeline idea needed clarification. Who might have given these notes and who actually wrote this clarification? Normally this kind of thing would be handed back to the writers to come up with a more explicit scene that better explains the story.

In general I think we have a tendency to inflate the notion of what directors do, especially at Marvel. This seems to be partly cultural, based on the notion of the ‘auteur director’ We think of directors being the main creators of movies. In the past this wasn’t the case. In the old studio system the producer was the person given the attention. The producer Oscar was the bigger prize for example. The director was hired for their ability to visually tell the story. To do the day to day directing of the scenes and actors.

Marvel Studios is much more of a studio system and correspondingly Feige gets a lot of recognition for being in charge. In this system the directors generally pitch a vision for the movie and the various movies do have very different looks and feels. This is reflective of the modern director and how they bring more of an overview and a vision. This isn’t totally incompatible with the idea of an auteur.

However, Feige is hiring these people and we have seen in the case of Ant-Man, that these can change if the tone or the approach isn’t the right one. We have also seen in the case of Age of Ultron, that wider production considerations can sometimes take precedence over the directors choices. Not in the normal manner of detached producers interfering, but based on a production team that very clearly has responsibility for the wider vision.

Perhaps we should think of the directors as storytellers, they are responsible for the medium of the story where the production team is responsible for the larger story and the writers are responsible for the details of the story. The directors can and will introduce elements that support their ‘vision’ but that ultimately is subservient to this new studio system.

[Arsenal]

For me the biggest question I would like answered about Endgame and time travel is why was the conversation between Banner and The Ancient One reshot. Apparently much of what we see in the resulting movie was added towards the end of the production. I wonder if the movie received notes that suggested the timeline idea needed clarification. Who might have given these notes and who actually wrote this clarification? Normally this kind of thing would be handed back to the writers to come up with a more explicit scene that better explains the story.

From what I understand (though I could be wrong), the scene was reshot after test screenings people were confused about how time travel worked.

[JKtheMac]

And when THAT happens, we can revisit this conversation. That would be a retcon. However, since it hasn't occured yet, what they say stands.

No what they directed stands. What Marvel produced stands. What we saw on screen, nothing else.

It literally is canon. That's how canon works. Unless someone higher up corrects them, or a new film/show retcons things. Neither has happened.

Canon is nothing to do with interviews with creatives, be they writers, directors, producers or anyone else. It is simply the body of work.

I'm not relying on them. I watched the same film you did and reached the same conclusion as the Russos, prior to them saying anything.

really? What exactly did you conclude? That Cap jumped from one timeline to another to hand over the shield? Nothing in the movie supports this. It is actively contradicted by every explanation about time travel in the movie. Why would you jump to that conclusion?

I'm merely using them because some people still seem to be confused by what they saw on screen. My hope is that their word will finally put the issue to rest. Guess not.

The truth is that the movie makes reference to what Midvillian1322 above jokingly refers to as ‘magical stones’ as the main explanation as to how time works. We don’t need anything else. The ‘gaps in logic’ are almost entirely based on the notion that the rules have to conform to some pseudo scientific theory that we have seen in other genre fiction. They don’t.

[JKtheMac]

From what I understand (though I could be wrong), the scene was reshot after test screenings people were confused about how time travel worked.

That sounds plausible, but that still leaves the wider question of how did we end up with what we saw, and also whether the previous version was significantly different in its actual message. It sounds like they spent much longer reshooting it than they did the first time around. As it is pivotal to how we come to understand time branching and subtly contradicts what Banner suggested earlier in the movie, and as various arguments about what the movie is really telling us mostly hinge on different interpretations on what The Ancient One explains, I would love to know more.

[AJBopp]

The movie gives us one explanation for what creates alternative timelines - removing a stone to a different time. Every other potential reason an alternative timeline might be created is immediately dismissed by the brightest brains in existence, and since it's Marvel's world and Marvel's laws of physics, they get to do that if they want to.

Some as where we get the idea that you can only create a new timeline by removing a stone. I ask where do you find in the movie an explanation for any other way to do it? Assuming new timelines are created because Captain America talked to Captain America, or Steve went and married Peggy, requires an assumption of evidence not put forth in the film.

There was one alternative timeline created and not restored- Loki's. There were five other timelines created, but not one frame of film actually showed us any of them. Captain America promised at the end to clip all the branches. I'm pretty sure he did.

Where'd the shield come from? I dunno. I assume there's a story there that they chose not to tell. There are infinite possibilities for it though. Would be interesting to hear it one day, but not knowing that story doesn't leave me unsatisfied with what I experienced.