Marvel's Archenemies: how has the beef between the pro/antagonists changed?

[Raye]

I mean if anything I see it as an opportunity for them. If a writer wants to do a story with a bad guy doing what would have previously been a Loki kind of thing, but he is no longer available cus he's doing his anti-hero thing, there are options available. Maximus for broader MU stuff, maybe Enchantress for Asgard stuff. But they can make it their own thing, and it gives them an opportunity to show what they've got, rather than just use Loki again doing the same sorts of things he's already done many times before.

[Frontier]

I mean if anything I see it as an opportunity for them. If a writer wants to do a story with a bad guy doing what would have previously been a Loki kind of thing, but he is no longer available cus he's doing his anti-hero thing, there are options available. Maximus for broader MU stuff, maybe Enchantress for Asgard stuff. But they can make it their own thing, and it gives them an opportunity to show what they've got, rather than just use Loki again doing the same sorts of things he's already done many times before.

I kinda get that, I just think it better for the characters to stand on their own terms then just try and fulfill Loki's place.

Like, ultimately I don't think Malekith worked as well in that role no matter how prominently it made him and Maximus can only really serve that role with the Inhumans because there's the personal element there. But that's just me.

[Tony Stark]

That's not why he's lasted. He's lasted because he is fundamentally an image of wealth and savagery, whereas Tony Stark is an image of wealth and civilization. An Ares vs Athena dynamic. The rings are at once the jewelry of a rich aristocrat, and the brass knuckles of a pimp or thug. This makes The Mandarin a kind of exaggeration of Stark's original flaws as a rich, hedonistic, warmonger. The Mandarin buys, the Mandarin conquers, the Mandarin exploits.

This makes him in many ways to Tony Stark what Oswald Cobblepot or Black Mask is to Batman, but worse, because Mandarin is a sort of living reminder of original sin in a way Penguin or Black Mask can't be for Batman.

Beautiful interpretation of their rivalry my friend.

[Raye]

I kinda get that, I just think it better for the characters to stand on their own terms then just try and fulfill Loki's place.

Like, ultimately I don't think Malekith worked as well in that role no matter how prominently it made him and Maximus can only really serve that role with the Inhumans because there's the personal element there. But that's just me.

Yes obviously the personal element is not something that can be recreated. But if Loki could work as a broader MU villain in part due to his connection to Thor/Asgard, then the same can be true for Maximus and Blackbolt/Attilan.

And with Malekith, I think he could have worked with some more time and development. Loki (or Doom or Magneto or any of the others) didn't enter the books completely fleshed out, that took decades worth of stories to accomplish. You can't expect the same thing in the span of a few years. (I mean Malekith has been around for a long time, but used very sporadically for a lot of it) With new or obscure characters being moved up a notch, its a case of planting a seed and giving it time to grow, and seeing that development happen rather than having all the pieces in place already is what could make them interesting, but it takes time. When people argue that characters can't compare to ones that have been around and used heavily for decades, i think they're missing the potential for seeing a character become more than what they are if given the opportunity.

[Mike_Murdock]

Does redemption really happen that often outside the X-Books?

I'd argue Doctor Doom has followed a similar path to Magneto, albeit not to the same degree.

I also think Maximus the Mad has taken on a hero role at times (similar to Loki in that regard). After Royals, it's hard to view Maximus as a villain at all.

Sandman was hero for a while before becoming turning rogue again, many of the Thunderbolts became heroes (Screaming Mimi was minor enough of a character that it seems to have stuck as Songbird). Nighthawk would certainly count, but that was also a relatively minor role before becoming a good guy.